recommended by ernunnos

[plural]

or
as he put it

required viewing

and
after watching it myself
I have to strongly agree

Obsession: What the War on Terror is Really About

so do me a favor, set aside an hour and watch this film

seriously

you need to do this



your plural

Comments

[budhaboy.livejournal.com]

Now I'm really confused...

Mel says "The Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world," and all this time growing up I thought it was the germans... or the fascists anyway.

Personally I'm of the mind that the only reason anyone has ever given islamisists the time of day is because they are sitting on an ocean of oil, and it's easier get their oil by empower strongmen to keep the people down, than to let these clowns work this shit out on their own. The oppressed, then turn to whatever means brings them up... It's what fueled communism and fascism in the last century.

How do we stop it? I don't see a way, but then again, growing up, I could have never predicted the soviet union would have fallen any more than my grandmother could have predicted the huns would have turned their power to evil and gone on a looney rampage (or that the darkies would ever have actually wanted to be free, but that's another issue).

[ernunnos.livejournal.com]

The Islamists have been making themselves heard for a very long time. Long before the discovery of oil. That little seige of Vienna in 1683? Guess who was doing the beseiging? Ironically the discovery of oil has paralleled the discovery of other technologies that have thwarted their aspirations and reduced their power on the world stage, but the fundamental desires haven't changed. It's not a matter of them working things out between themselves, it's a matter of Islamic expansion. From the Armenian genocide of 1915 to war in Bosnia and Chechnya in the 1990s, to rebel groups in the Philipines today.

They're following a religion that commands them to subjugate the earth, and the lack of an Islamic empire simply drives them to DIY tactics.

[budhaboy.livejournal.com]

I guess I'm a little short sighted, but from where I'm sitting, why do I care?

I don't live in vienna, Bosnia, Chechnya... These places are simmering because they've been hotbeds forever. In America, there's never been an issue... The ONLY reason I as an American should give a shit is because they are sitting on an ocean of oil. The only reason an islamis radical is pissed off at me is because:

1) We support Israel over the Arabs (to keep the leaders in power... if we aid them by keeping them pissed at Jews, and not the boot on their throats, they can keep some stability and keep pumping the oil)

2) We support NASTY assed dictators instead of actually supporting justice (wahabbism isn't islam, yet we assist the Saudis in propagating that nonsense)... and don't get me started on what little I know about Egypt.

I agree these nuts have been a boil on the world for a very long time... but they didn't have any real teeth until they got serious global power. Now you can twist all the world's evils into their actions... but trust me as a longstanding WASP, I've heard it all before about the Jigs... the Kikes... the Pope-lovers... While I haven't had time to watch the video (I did download it though and will watch it tonight) I can't help it's little more than similar rantings.

[ikilled007.livejournal.com]

Did you watch the movie? The Islamic radicals themselves would call you an idiot for your propositions about why they are pissed off at you. Yes, those reasons are reasons they hate you. But they themselves list a bunch more.

Here's what you don't understand. They are killing people all over the place. Bali, for instance. Did Bali send troops to the Mid East? Is Bali supplying Israel? And Thailand. Tell me, is Thailand arming Israel? The Philippines?

Wake up.

[budhaboy.livejournal.com]

As I said, I haven't watched the movie.

And again, I'm sure they are killing people everywhere, and that is very sad. But people die all the time, in very tragic uprising all the time that have nothing whatsoever to do with Islamic fundamentalism. The rebels in the Congo have killed more people than died in all of WWII, but you don't attribute them to Islamic radicals... what about pol pot? the kamer rouge? All of these other by your claims 'lesser' uprising of brutal dictators burned themselves out, and truth be told ALL have some 'other' festering local issue at their core. I'm guessing this is true in Bali, thailand and the Philippines... In the end they will burn themselves out as they impetus for the killing is some local issue and only peripherally related to a larger 'global' ideology. In the middle east it's systemic, as the strong men feed it to keep power, and we used to encourage it for reasons of 'stability' and cheap oil.

This notion that there is a vast web of interconnected islamofascists that have been growing exponentially for decades is absurd... you hear now that their ranks grow because of the internet, yet the internet isn't everywhere, and was in dramatically less places even 10 years ago. How did they spread the message then? You hear now that there are camps that have trained thousands of armed comandos thirsting for the blood of the infidel... yet I can point to 50 different places in DC alone that could kill thousands, and I've never even fired a gun... if they were here, I'd be dead as I work on capital hill... but I'm willing to give it a listen much as I've given a listen to every whack-job consipiracy nut I've heard in my 40 years on the planet. I feel it keeps me well rounded.

[ernunnos.livejournal.com]

Everything you say was absolutely true on Afghanistan. They don't have oil. They aren't threatened by Israel. We weren't supporting a dictator there, we even helped them kick out the Soviets and establish their own popularly supported theocratic state. In early 2001 we even sent food aid to them while they were destroying priceless works of art in accordance with their religion. Hey, not our business, right?

[budhaboy.livejournal.com]

Excellent point. Afghanistan was a tragedy, we should have gone in earlier and set things right... the seeds we planted to defeat the soviets did spread, but it was a LOCAL thing... and in the end, they folded like a cheap suit. Contrary to the claims that there were thousands of international, blood thirsty killers itching for the chance to kill infidels, there were probrably only hundreds... I'm guessing most of them really hate Osamma right now for making them give up really profitable opium farms, and moving their kids around.

So what are we doing about it now? Are we assisting them to build roads? Instill a fairer, non faith based system of justice? Nah... we prop up yet another puppet and let the strong men oppress to keep the people down. What lessons have we learned? Not a goddamned thing.

[ernunnos.livejournal.com]

"but it was a LOCAL thing"

Riiiight. 9/11. A local thing. All the other terrorists exported, local. The world's getting smaller, in case you haven't looked. We have jets now. What used to be local now has repercussions far, far away.

[budhaboy.livejournal.com]

There is no more threat from Jets.

If Ossamma didn't blow his wad with 9/11, why did he 'follow up' his master plan with a doof like the shoe bomber? ALL of his other attacks were done by locals on local targets in places he personally preached his gospel...

The 'attacks' in the philapines, thailand, bali were all locally motivated on local targets by locals settlling local scores using islamofascism as a way to draw attention to their cause.

[budhaboy.livejournal.com]

I guess my point is this:

In '90, '91 I kept running into whack-job millitia groups who were CONVINCED the world was coming to an end. They ranted, they raved, they spoke shit out of their ass-holes about the niggers, the jews, the catholics... During the early nineties it seemed these dumbasses were growing... they were becoming more noisy... then mcvey got lucky and blew up a building... and the davidians went down... and ruby ridge... Where are these clowns now? In the thick of it, you could have been convinced that they were going to take over the country and take america back, but in the end, when the rubber hits the road, only two, maybe three groups had the grapes to actually do anything, and the horror of it killed the motivation for the others whose bravado far exceeded their actual intentions.

Why in the world would this be any different?

[ernunnos.livejournal.com]

A little thing called "religion", which has historically been a damn good motivator, especially since people are indoctrinated in it from birth.

As for the militia movement, I know a little bit about that. What really reigned them back was Clinton's impeachment - the system was working, at least in their view - and Bush's election. But they're still out there - many have moved on to specific issues, like the Minutemen - and if a Democrat gets elected in 2008, I expect you'll see militias become a popular movement again.

[budhaboy.livejournal.com]

What really reigned them back was Clinton's impeachment

What I remember is what really reigned them in was seeing dead babies being pulled out of the oklahoma city building... Now it's true there was a cult of true believers still lurking around but as a truly menacing force they were utterly marginalized as they'd never make the mass appeal they'd need to make any serious impact towards achieving their goal. As for them going underground after Clinton's impeachment... I don't buy it as they would have been screaming bloody murder at the afronts to their liberty since 9/11... I also doubt the timing, but I don't have links, and don't care that much so I'll let it go.


A little thing called "religion", which has historically been a damn good motivator, especially since people are indoctrinated in it from birth


Yeah, and when I was raised, the 'religion' to fear was communism... They were everywhere, and all of them were raised to want to drink my blood. Even the crusaids had little to do with religion and more to do with money. In the course of my life I've been told to:

1) be deathly afraid of the Commies... Then in the late 80's when I actually met some, they really weren't all that bad. In fact, NONE of them ever were taught to kill me. At that time there were cranks who would regularly try to convince me that glastnos was really just a commie plot to lull us into a false sense of security. Later in graduate school a fellow student who grew up in Moscow told me about having to get water from a well every summer for a month while the guy who ran the public works went on vacation... this would have been about the same time the cranks were pimping their commie plot theories.

2) I should really join a millitia as after the overthrow of the new world order being put forth by Bush I, and later Clinton (Democrat, Republican... it didnt' really matter when Butros-Butros was really in charge) it was the only way I could guarantee my families safety (seriously... I got this rap more than once in the late 80's early nineties).

3) EVERYTHING changed with the advent of the internet... NOTHING was ever the same...

4) Afghanistan spawned THOUSANDS of jihadists all HELL BENT ON KILLING me... Yet after living in DC since '01, I haven't seen one. In fact I ride the train from DC to baltimore Every day and you'd have to be a complete imbecille to not notice that 1) you can carry on as much unscanned luggage as you can carry, 2) you don't need any id to buy a ticket, 3) you can pay cash on the train. 4) you could easily kill hundreds in plain view of the capital building making a really great propaganda shot... I could go on with the other ridiculous holes in security in our nation's capital that any moron, let alone THOUSANDS OF WELL TRAINED JIHADISTS could easily spot, but seriously... why bother.

Here is what I've seen in the last 10(ish) years:

1) nut-job works up followers to bomb the WTC with a truck. Fails, and his entire local network get nabbed by law enforcment.
2) vaguely related nut-job works up followers in N. Africa and gets members of LOCAL cells to blow up LOCAL targes in Tanzunia and Yemin.
3) Same nut-job from 2 gets REALLY lucky and blows his wad on a really clever scheme involving airplanes... his motivation for blowing all his rescources is to inspire a revolution that will provoke a military response, causing the creation of thousands of MORE true believers who will then rain down death on Israel, and over throw their puppet regime in Saudi Arabia.
4) Nut-job is put on the run in his home country... his entire fundraising apparatis is dismantled, as is any good will from the folks who didn't drink the cool-aid but were sympathetic (think the weekend warriors who liked the adventure of fighting the new world order, but didn't really have the stomach for it.
5) other copy-cats do more LOCAL bombings and attempt to link themselves to previous nut-job.

[ernunnos.livejournal.com]

Yet after living in DC since '01, I haven't seen one.

And hey, if it's not happening to you, it's not happening.

continued...

[budhaboy.livejournal.com]

Only two of the events were somethign other than locals, hitting local targets using religion as an excuse. Argueably two were 'global' but the were ultimately crushed. The downing of the WTC killed the broad support, tragically Iraq is gaining them WAY more followers than they ever would have gotten had we not invaded... and argueably is a serious threat in the same way that Afghanistan was... But honestly, I have no fear riding the train in to DC every morning. NONE there is no imminent threat.

[budhaboy.livejournal.com]

This article in the NYtimes illustrates my point:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/01/world/asia/01indo.html?hp&ex=1154491200&en=37c2f26e0c5aa539&ei=5094&partner=homepage

The FIRST province in indonesia to put Shariah Law was Banda Aceh. They didn't come about because of some global conspiracy they didn't do it to do the bidding of the some grand islamic mind, they did it because Hobbs was right and in the absence of any social order PEOPLE become animals. It was a response to LOCAL conditions. When this occured in Afghanistan it was appalling because there was no way to allow the people to rise up from 'nearly as bad' oppression... But Afghanistan is isolated in a way indonesia isn't. My sister used to go to Banda Aceh, for God's sake, and she's a Yuppy's yuppy. As some point in the future, Shariah Law will fall if only because there will exist an alternative that provides a better future. Not all people are fanatical robots to their faith, only a few. When the majority sees a better way, they will rise up, it is inevitable.

[ernunnos.livejournal.com]

When the majority sees a better way, they will rise up, it is inevitable.

Great. No need to do anything then. I guess the same thing should apply to all the political issues you care about. Which makes me wonder why you care enough to post four posts in the row. Things will end up the way you want. It's inevitable. Granted, you may not be alive to see it, but what does that matter?

Your faith in history to automatically and inevitably solve all problems is touching, but extremely misguided. I sincerely hope you haven't used that line on any Rwandans. They might just punch you.