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Jun. 26th, 2002 12:03 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
pluralAn ongoing conversation spawned by this post by ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
mselfie which I though I would share.
Even if I grant you that these three particular men were bad communicators, I have issues with your statements.
The first thing that comes to mind is that what you are saying is not what you think you are saying.
Communication is the ability to transfer information effectively.
You seem to equate emotional intimacy with communication.
Just because a guy is unwilling to express or share his feelings does not mean he is a poor communicator. In most cases a man is unwilling to examine his own feelings deeply enough to be able to communicate them properly, and therefore refuses to do so. Many men, I will grant you are uncomfortable with their emotions, I am not one of them, but I know many who are. This does lead to somewhat disappointing conversations when the topic is "how do you feel" etc. For the most part the battle is not to get the man to communicate how he feels, [a huge misdirection undertaken by most women when attempting to deal with their perceptions of a lacking in emotional intimacy.] but instead to get the guy to explore his feelings and validate his right to feel a certain way.
I will generalize here and all standard disclaimers apply for such generalizations.
Men are raised to focus on facts and devalue their emotions. Emotions equal weakness.
If two women have a discussion about the problems in one of their lives, how it makes you feel is of paramount importance.
However with men, how you feel is irrelevant, all that matters is how to resolve the crisis. It is not a lack of emotional intimacy in male relationships but a difference in the method of providing emotional support.
to many guys, emotional support is having a few beers, listening to whats happening, saying "man that really sucks" and either launching into ideas for future direction [saying "man you are just fucked here" is considered valid advice for the problem] or telling your friend to grow the fuck up and stop wallowing in this bullshit.
We men are trained to focus on results and direction, when our lives are all screwed up and we are hurting or unsure of ourselves and wondering what direction to head.
What we want and need emotionally is someone to listen, provide ideas which we will most likely ignore on how to fix it and regain our direction.
What we hear is "Hey man, shit happens, you are a good guy and things will look up soon" thus restoring our confidence that things will be ok.
When a chick steps in and starts validating our feelings, what we hear is "oh my, yeah you do suck and damn I am glad I don't have your fucking hopeless life"
The problem is really not communication, men and women have different needs and the more we try to meet our partners needs how we need our needs met rather than how they need their needs met, the more fucked up our relationships will be.
Your last comment is quite true.. I was raised by many woman, and do infact understand [although I still often misread] what womens emotional needs are and how they need me to meet those needs.
My older sister [and a half dozen of her friends] were instrumental in raising me, they sort of decided that I was going to be a sauve womanizer with a working ethical compass. The vast majority of my closest friends have always been women [my oldest friend of 23 years is a woman]. So while my fellow boys were playing farting games in the elevator, I was playing kissing games in the bushes. Cant say I feel like I missed out though, and what I have learned has served me [and a number of women] exceedingly well.
mselfie which I though I would share.Even if I grant you that these three particular men were bad communicators, I have issues with your statements.
The first thing that comes to mind is that what you are saying is not what you think you are saying.
Communication is the ability to transfer information effectively.
You seem to equate emotional intimacy with communication.
Just because a guy is unwilling to express or share his feelings does not mean he is a poor communicator. In most cases a man is unwilling to examine his own feelings deeply enough to be able to communicate them properly, and therefore refuses to do so. Many men, I will grant you are uncomfortable with their emotions, I am not one of them, but I know many who are. This does lead to somewhat disappointing conversations when the topic is "how do you feel" etc. For the most part the battle is not to get the man to communicate how he feels, [a huge misdirection undertaken by most women when attempting to deal with their perceptions of a lacking in emotional intimacy.] but instead to get the guy to explore his feelings and validate his right to feel a certain way.
I will generalize here and all standard disclaimers apply for such generalizations.
Men are raised to focus on facts and devalue their emotions. Emotions equal weakness.
If two women have a discussion about the problems in one of their lives, how it makes you feel is of paramount importance.
However with men, how you feel is irrelevant, all that matters is how to resolve the crisis. It is not a lack of emotional intimacy in male relationships but a difference in the method of providing emotional support.
to many guys, emotional support is having a few beers, listening to whats happening, saying "man that really sucks" and either launching into ideas for future direction [saying "man you are just fucked here" is considered valid advice for the problem] or telling your friend to grow the fuck up and stop wallowing in this bullshit.
We men are trained to focus on results and direction, when our lives are all screwed up and we are hurting or unsure of ourselves and wondering what direction to head.
What we want and need emotionally is someone to listen, provide ideas which we will most likely ignore on how to fix it and regain our direction.
What we hear is "Hey man, shit happens, you are a good guy and things will look up soon" thus restoring our confidence that things will be ok.
When a chick steps in and starts validating our feelings, what we hear is "oh my, yeah you do suck and damn I am glad I don't have your fucking hopeless life"
The problem is really not communication, men and women have different needs and the more we try to meet our partners needs how we need our needs met rather than how they need their needs met, the more fucked up our relationships will be.
Your last comment is quite true.. I was raised by many woman, and do infact understand [although I still often misread] what womens emotional needs are and how they need me to meet those needs.
My older sister [and a half dozen of her friends] were instrumental in raising me, they sort of decided that I was going to be a sauve womanizer with a working ethical compass. The vast majority of my closest friends have always been women [my oldest friend of 23 years is a woman]. So while my fellow boys were playing farting games in the elevator, I was playing kissing games in the bushes. Cant say I feel like I missed out though, and what I have learned has served me [and a number of women] exceedingly well.
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no subject
Date: 2002-06-26 07:15 am (UTC)lol
Date: 2002-06-26 09:23 am (UTC)but from what I hear it is pretty good.
[a girlfriend of mine started reading it]
[but didnt like it and quit]
[guess maybe it wasnt validating her ideas of what a bastard I was being]
Re: lol
Date: 2002-06-26 09:27 am (UTC)I tend to get pissy any time gender generalizations are made, so that was my difficulty with it. But sometimes you need to make generalizations in order to reach the stage you can try to start working things through.
I did think that Grey makes a few too many excuses for men's behaviors though. His solution to all gender problems is to accept each gender's weakness and try to work around them. I personally think both men and woman need to be called on some of their rotten habits and be held accountable for them.
no subject
Date: 2002-06-26 09:45 am (UTC)Both sexes are accountable to learn and practice fullfilling the needs of their partners in the style which their partner needs their needs met. But that does not mean that either partner has a get out of jail free card when it comes to their personal bullshit or the expectation that they continue to grow emotionally and intellectually as a human being.