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Jun. 26th, 2002 12:03 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
pluralAn ongoing conversation spawned by this post by ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
mselfie which I though I would share.
Even if I grant you that these three particular men were bad communicators, I have issues with your statements.
The first thing that comes to mind is that what you are saying is not what you think you are saying.
Communication is the ability to transfer information effectively.
You seem to equate emotional intimacy with communication.
Just because a guy is unwilling to express or share his feelings does not mean he is a poor communicator. In most cases a man is unwilling to examine his own feelings deeply enough to be able to communicate them properly, and therefore refuses to do so. Many men, I will grant you are uncomfortable with their emotions, I am not one of them, but I know many who are. This does lead to somewhat disappointing conversations when the topic is "how do you feel" etc. For the most part the battle is not to get the man to communicate how he feels, [a huge misdirection undertaken by most women when attempting to deal with their perceptions of a lacking in emotional intimacy.] but instead to get the guy to explore his feelings and validate his right to feel a certain way.
I will generalize here and all standard disclaimers apply for such generalizations.
Men are raised to focus on facts and devalue their emotions. Emotions equal weakness.
If two women have a discussion about the problems in one of their lives, how it makes you feel is of paramount importance.
However with men, how you feel is irrelevant, all that matters is how to resolve the crisis. It is not a lack of emotional intimacy in male relationships but a difference in the method of providing emotional support.
to many guys, emotional support is having a few beers, listening to whats happening, saying "man that really sucks" and either launching into ideas for future direction [saying "man you are just fucked here" is considered valid advice for the problem] or telling your friend to grow the fuck up and stop wallowing in this bullshit.
We men are trained to focus on results and direction, when our lives are all screwed up and we are hurting or unsure of ourselves and wondering what direction to head.
What we want and need emotionally is someone to listen, provide ideas which we will most likely ignore on how to fix it and regain our direction.
What we hear is "Hey man, shit happens, you are a good guy and things will look up soon" thus restoring our confidence that things will be ok.
When a chick steps in and starts validating our feelings, what we hear is "oh my, yeah you do suck and damn I am glad I don't have your fucking hopeless life"
The problem is really not communication, men and women have different needs and the more we try to meet our partners needs how we need our needs met rather than how they need their needs met, the more fucked up our relationships will be.
Your last comment is quite true.. I was raised by many woman, and do infact understand [although I still often misread] what womens emotional needs are and how they need me to meet those needs.
My older sister [and a half dozen of her friends] were instrumental in raising me, they sort of decided that I was going to be a sauve womanizer with a working ethical compass. The vast majority of my closest friends have always been women [my oldest friend of 23 years is a woman]. So while my fellow boys were playing farting games in the elevator, I was playing kissing games in the bushes. Cant say I feel like I missed out though, and what I have learned has served me [and a number of women] exceedingly well.
mselfie which I though I would share.Even if I grant you that these three particular men were bad communicators, I have issues with your statements.
The first thing that comes to mind is that what you are saying is not what you think you are saying.
Communication is the ability to transfer information effectively.
You seem to equate emotional intimacy with communication.
Just because a guy is unwilling to express or share his feelings does not mean he is a poor communicator. In most cases a man is unwilling to examine his own feelings deeply enough to be able to communicate them properly, and therefore refuses to do so. Many men, I will grant you are uncomfortable with their emotions, I am not one of them, but I know many who are. This does lead to somewhat disappointing conversations when the topic is "how do you feel" etc. For the most part the battle is not to get the man to communicate how he feels, [a huge misdirection undertaken by most women when attempting to deal with their perceptions of a lacking in emotional intimacy.] but instead to get the guy to explore his feelings and validate his right to feel a certain way.
I will generalize here and all standard disclaimers apply for such generalizations.
Men are raised to focus on facts and devalue their emotions. Emotions equal weakness.
If two women have a discussion about the problems in one of their lives, how it makes you feel is of paramount importance.
However with men, how you feel is irrelevant, all that matters is how to resolve the crisis. It is not a lack of emotional intimacy in male relationships but a difference in the method of providing emotional support.
to many guys, emotional support is having a few beers, listening to whats happening, saying "man that really sucks" and either launching into ideas for future direction [saying "man you are just fucked here" is considered valid advice for the problem] or telling your friend to grow the fuck up and stop wallowing in this bullshit.
We men are trained to focus on results and direction, when our lives are all screwed up and we are hurting or unsure of ourselves and wondering what direction to head.
What we want and need emotionally is someone to listen, provide ideas which we will most likely ignore on how to fix it and regain our direction.
What we hear is "Hey man, shit happens, you are a good guy and things will look up soon" thus restoring our confidence that things will be ok.
When a chick steps in and starts validating our feelings, what we hear is "oh my, yeah you do suck and damn I am glad I don't have your fucking hopeless life"
The problem is really not communication, men and women have different needs and the more we try to meet our partners needs how we need our needs met rather than how they need their needs met, the more fucked up our relationships will be.
Your last comment is quite true.. I was raised by many woman, and do infact understand [although I still often misread] what womens emotional needs are and how they need me to meet those needs.
My older sister [and a half dozen of her friends] were instrumental in raising me, they sort of decided that I was going to be a sauve womanizer with a working ethical compass. The vast majority of my closest friends have always been women [my oldest friend of 23 years is a woman]. So while my fellow boys were playing farting games in the elevator, I was playing kissing games in the bushes. Cant say I feel like I missed out though, and what I have learned has served me [and a number of women] exceedingly well.
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no subject
Date: 2002-06-26 07:15 am (UTC)lol
Date: 2002-06-26 09:23 am (UTC)but from what I hear it is pretty good.
[a girlfriend of mine started reading it]
[but didnt like it and quit]
[guess maybe it wasnt validating her ideas of what a bastard I was being]
Re: lol
Date: 2002-06-26 09:27 am (UTC)I tend to get pissy any time gender generalizations are made, so that was my difficulty with it. But sometimes you need to make generalizations in order to reach the stage you can try to start working things through.
I did think that Grey makes a few too many excuses for men's behaviors though. His solution to all gender problems is to accept each gender's weakness and try to work around them. I personally think both men and woman need to be called on some of their rotten habits and be held accountable for them.
no subject
Date: 2002-06-26 09:45 am (UTC)Both sexes are accountable to learn and practice fullfilling the needs of their partners in the style which their partner needs their needs met. But that does not mean that either partner has a get out of jail free card when it comes to their personal bullshit or the expectation that they continue to grow emotionally and intellectually as a human being.
no subject
Date: 2002-06-26 08:22 am (UTC)Well. This sentence explains about 75% of the disageements I've had with men in my life.
And yet, no man has ever been able to explain to me how he feels when I sympathize with the shit he's going through, how it bothers him so much. Usually men just get annoyed and go elsewhere when so bothered. And the female is left feeling like she's wearing a neon sign that says "FAILURE AS A WOMAN". I think I get it a little more and will try to keep these words in mind next time a male friend complains that something sucks. So thank you.
Ah ha!
Date: 2002-06-26 12:22 pm (UTC)You know, no matter how much I try to explain this to the man in my life, he doesn't get it.
A lot of men have their entire existance revolving around their job and their ability to "bring home the bacon".
Alternatively, a job is a job to a woman. Her life revolves around being able to communicate and use words to convey feelings, etc. When she is unable to get her man to open up to her, that's exactly what she's thinking. "I am a failure as a woman."
In the next post after the one
Re: Ah ha!
Date: 2002-06-26 12:37 pm (UTC)Anyway, I enjoyed the post. I've lived your scene of talking to a guy about "what's wrong" and not getting a straight answer many times, and each time I walk out of it feeling like dirt when I really, truly am doing my best to help. Frustrating to say the least. We do tend to measure ourselves this way, be it logical or not. It is part of what you said here: I would go so far as to argue that women learn from the beginning to bend over backwards for the man's needs which is something I agree with to an extent. It depends on your definition of "learn", though. I don't think there's some conspiracy put on by males to make girls feel as though they need to care for them. But I think there is an underlying attitude, in people of both genders, that women are to take care of what the man wants and are defined by that to some extent.
Agreed, also, that members of both sexes do have to work hard to relate to each other properly and talk effectively.
no subject
Date: 2002-06-26 11:39 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2002-06-26 12:42 pm (UTC)i.e. a man is pissy because he thinks he got ripped off by a car dealership
validation - "I can't believe someone took advantage of you like that. It isn't fair. I'm sorry"
Basically, if you're feeling bad for yourself over something, if a friend "validates your feelings" she's saying its okay to feel bad for yourself. Which women tend to want to hear because we're always worried that our emotions are unreasonable, and men do not because they're worried about feeling like pussies already for being taken advantage of in the first place, now you want to tell them its okay to be self-pitying about it?
Sorry for the excessive generalizing. But its easier than too many disclaimers :)
no subject
Date: 2002-06-27 01:36 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2002-06-27 01:33 am (UTC)that the person has a right to feel the way they do, which may have no other relevance on the world.
for example you are pissed off because your flight home got cancelled, I could validate your feelings by saying, "yeah that is bullshit, I would be pissed too" but that doesnt do much for the fact that your still fucked.
no subject
Date: 2002-06-29 06:03 am (UTC)bingo...
Date: 2002-06-29 04:15 pm (UTC)Women want to know that it is okay for them to feel a certain way.
Men want to know that they are not incompetant losers.
Helping a man resolve a problem is paramount in providing emotional support.
Re: bingo...
Date: 2002-06-30 06:24 am (UTC)My old ex must have been a woman trapped in a man's body, then. He never liked my proposing solutions. Just liked to commiserate. He always got annoyed when I was practical, maybe felt like I was nagging him or something. Come to think of it, I was always bringing him flowers too -- he liked it :)
In most cases, I feel what I feel, and whether it's okay is not an issue. The only time I need this "validation" is when I'm in some argument with someone else, and I'll refer to a third party to see whether it is I or my opponent being unreasonable.
I like knowing I'm not an incompetant loser, too. Hm.
no subject
Date: 2002-07-01 03:17 am (UTC)yep
I fall in that catagory myself
although
my arrogance tends to help me out
quite a bit there
*grin*
I love getting flowers
[and giving flowers]
mostly it is because as a guy, people rather rarely give you flowers, but I think its neat.
I am excessively solution orientated, my feelings are irrelevant until the crisis has been averted, then I go back and think about what happened and how I felt, I have trained myself to check that instinct when empathizing with others and work to figure out what they need from me, rather than telling them what they need. It seems to work well, but I must admit occasionally I get bloody frustrated with it.
*grin*