what are your demands?

[plural]

a response to this post by Art Vamp

From your post they are as follows

End the Occupation -

i can personally guarantee you
[i have friends in low places]

that if the bombs stop
so will the occupation

and in time
if peace can be maintained
and both your people and ours stop dying in the street

the palestinians will have a state
will have freedom

[but i remind you that even before]
[there was an occupation (pre-1967) there was terrorism]
[snipers shooting over the walls, men sneaking accross the border with bombs]

End Israeli Violence -

to end only israeli violence is one sided and blantantly ridiculous
you cant expect one side to do what the other will not.
we have tried
we have declared unilateral ceasefires
and still the bombs come

End US Aid to Israel -

this only makes sense in the context of the war,
and even then only barely

israel is the only democratic country in the region,
[and america should support countries which live by american ideals]
and the only true friend america has there,

on 9-11 how many countries sent the US aid to deal with the tradegy, how many sent people to help?
one,
israel.

israel had a team of disaster specialists on a plane within twenty four hours,
the US gives aid and sends disaster assistance to every corner of the world
but when the US has a disaster how many respond in kind?
only one.

tell me one good reason why us aid to israel should end?
[and not because it would help your side to win]

Right of Return for the Palestinians -

this can not, will not
and in my opinion
should not happen.

In 1948 the palestinians willfully seperated themselves from their lands,
commited acts of sabotage and destruction on their way out.
They refused citizenship and instead sided with isreal´s enemies against her.
They have spent the past fifty-four years in armed conflict against her,
and now we are expected to let the enemy in through the gates,
return their land and
hope, wish and pray
that they will let us live in peace?

as if the anger and hatred that exists
will suddenly disapate because you live inside our borders?

Throughout history people have made decisions and chosen sides in conflicts,
when they chose correctly they prospered,
when they chose falsely they suffered.
It is the way of the world and the consequences of life.

and the right of the return is
not a measure to seek peace
but a political way to destroy israel
as it exists as a jewish state

Israel has a population of roughly six million people
[80% or 4.8 million jews and 1.2 million arabs]
the gaza strip and the west bank are home to nearly four million palestinians

[source: Central Intelligence Agency, United States Government]
[figures are estimates from a July 2001 intelligence report]
[as i said i have friends in low places]

if the right of return was granted
and only those palestinians within the west bank and gaza returned
[which is unlikely as many of the wealthiest palestinians who owned most of the land]
[live elsewhere and would return, if only briefly to reclaim their lands]

the populations figures would be the following
roughly 4.8 million jews and 5.2 million arabs
this would be a political and democratic end
to the jewish state

what is the problem with that you ask?

it is a brilliant tactic, i give you that
use the ideals of the west to destroy your enemies

how can they argue?

the problem my friends is simple
you cannot require the destruction of your enemies
by any means
either political or martial
as part of a process of peace

it is called bad faith negotiating
and merely proves that you do not want to co-exist peacefully
a palestinian state along side a jewish state
but simply victory
by any means
by any method

those of you who are familar with my ideas
know that i want peace
true peace

that i believe both sides are equally guilty
and that peace has a price

but i do not believe in peace at any price
especially when that price is our destruction

Negotiations are a process of compromising
we give up something to get peace
and you give up something to get peace

the problem is
your leaders are not trying to negotiate for peace
you leaders are trying to negotiate a victory
and nor can they admit in their heart of hearts
that we even have a right to exist
to simply live

the palestinian demands have not budged
have not changed from day one
not on a single principle have you compromised

you will accept nothing but total agreement to your terms
that is not compromise
that is victory

your leaders must have the courage to be honest with their people
to explain that you must give up something to get others
and your people must have the courage to accept it
and quite frankly so must mine

Comments

[teaser.livejournal.com]

The last 5 paragraphs of your post sum up what's been missing in this entire war...inflexibility. As you so rightly state, peace comes at a price...and that price is compromise.

[supersmash.livejournal.com]

You seem to acknowledge it as "their land" more than once. While the clock can't be turned back, any peace is going to require a recognition of that fact. It is important to remember that there is a tremendous history of terrorism and citizen miliitias on the Israeli side. Much of the Israeli territory (esp. post 1967) is "spoils of war", except in most conflicts the land is returned to the loser ultimately.

I think in America we have a hard time relating, We have such a transient society and feel no real blood tie to a specific geography. I would personally just move somewhere else, but even Palestinians in the US would go back to their homeland in a second...if they had one. It carries down from generation to generation so that the children are willing to blow themselves up for it. People arent doing that for fun. Unless the pain is addressed...it will probably never stop.

Sharon is the worst possible person to be dealing with this. Much like Bush is doing, he is using a real crisis and conflict to push through a much more extreme agenda. Peres is much more realistic about the need for compromise. Terrorism is evil but not much more evil than war in general. Is Terrorism really a matter of opinion, is it just unsanctioned warfare. The warfare of the under capitalized? That is a scary thought. Sharon has been responsible for things in his official capacity that are equally horrible. He is a bad guy overall. How come these kind of guys are in power when this stuff happens?

It is the extremists on all sides that will destroy the world. Don't forget the jews killed Rabin after all. At least the Palestinian demands are not based in the sort of zealotry that led to that or that drives Bin Laden. It is all about land and that should be able to be remedied somewhat.

[supersmash.livejournal.com]

You are totally right about the choice of targets. The only rationale I can see is that when you are undercapitalized and undermanned like a guerilla army, civilian targets carry more weight. THat was the principal behind Hiroshima and Nagasaki and many other successful military campaigns. Civilian casualties will weaken the opponents resolve. I suppose killing is killing and it is somewhat splitting hairs to suggest that it is more honorable to kill a fresh faced 18 year old soldier who may not want to be there either. Nobody should be killing anybody.

[nutmeg.livejournal.com]

Not to mention that in general israel seems to treat all palestinians as military targets, because they are fighting a "terrorist war", killing far more palestinians than israelis were targeted...

And I'll echo... no one should be killing anyone.

[city-glitter.livejournal.com]

This whole conflict gives me a headache. Let it suffice to say that the Israelis should get off their cross and look at the human rights violations they're perpetrating before someone comes right and and yells "HYPOCRITE!"

[plural.livejournal.com]

i agree
although it is not
my head that aches
but my heart

i have never said
that either side was
less or more culpable
than the other

i believe we are equally
guilty of atrocities
and human rights violations

and israel has never wavered
from its basic position
so it is impossible to be hypocritical

our position is simple
we will use
every means at our disposal
to protect our children

ask any parent
if they would not
do the same?

[city-glitter.livejournal.com]

It's not impossible to be hypocritical seeing how it is their country was formed under the pretense of giving a persecuted people a safe place.

Don't even get me started on us.

[softwhisper.livejournal.com]

so.. you're a left wing muslim, am I right?

[softwhisper.livejournal.com]

Seriously: As far as the original post goes, it's a fairly healthy mass of bigotry. This *is* your LJ, and I believe in your right to state your opinion. but my right, since you made it public, is to disagree.

Firstly, I'd like to point out that even in the old testament, aside from Ruth, the Israelites were exclusive, and pretty much said that everyone else in the world was screwed. Ruth was one of the "whores" from another country, unless you read the book of Ruth. So basically being racist hasn't helped very right-wing jewish groups, just as it hasn't helped the Nazis, or the KKK. Maybe you think me saying that is bigotry. But anyone who knows me knows I'm NOT a bigot, I'm an anti-bigot, which is why my arguments to the contrary are often quite offensive.

Secondly, Israel coming to the US's aid after 9/11 wasn't a big shock. the US has been propping up israel as a state for 30 years. All the other countries in the region can't afford to help them because israel keeps mashing them down and the US supports it. To give you an example: Quebec wants to seperate from Canada, or at least one element of Quebec does: if France supported Quebec to form an army to force the seperation, do you think Canada would have friendly feelings toward France? I doubt it. Just as I doubt if the US suddenly decided to support the Palestinians in their equality drive, that Israel would be a big friend of the US. Lets face it, Israel, as it stands, is basically like South Africa was 15 years ago.

So think on those things before you try to garner 9/11 sympathies with your rhetoric.

[plural.livejournal.com]

While i always invite
intelligent and insightful
points of view
especially when they are contrary
to mine

I have a few ground rules
first they must be intelligent
second they be insightful
and lastly
they must argue the points
not argue with rhetoric
and cast aspersions

you sir have failed in all three
however since
you are new I will entertain
to respond regardless

To begin,
you accuse me of bigotry
if you disagree with my ideas
my thoughts
splendid, i like nothing better
but
do not accuse me of bigotry sir
for you have no idea to whom you speak
and merely label me so
because you disagree
and that my dear friend
is the sign of an intolerant mind
so do not project your intolerance on to me.

It is absolutely my right to state my opinion
regardless of whether it is my LJ or not
and similarly is it not only your right
to disagree but such disagreement
is most welcome
in this particular LJ

I will now address your points

the Jews were not exclusive
as you say, in the old testament
yes according to the old testament
the Jews were the chosen people
but
what you say about everyone else
being screwed is patently false
the idea that you are right
and everyone else goes to hell
is a patently Christian idea
and it was from the Christians
that the Muslims got it.

As a Jew
there are six hundred and thirteen commandments
that i am obligated to follow
if i do a good jobs at following them
i get to go to heaven

a person who is not Jewish
has
seven commandments
if he follows those
he goes to heaven.

and who is screwed?
don't try to tell me what my religion is
I was raised as an orthodox Jew and
have studied the old testament
more than half the days of my life

you try to align
the Jews and the old testament
with ideals belonging to the nazis and the KKK
if that is the case
then why is it throughout history
it is we who have been slaughtered
with the ideals you attribute to us
there would have been no nazis
because we would have slaughtered them
well in advance

you sir are not an anti bigot
but a bigot hiding behind a false shield

projecting your racism onto your enemy
painting your enemy with false colors
to make yourself seem pure in comparison

and your arguments are not offensive
for their anti-bigotry but are offensive
for their lack of logical argument and
individual thought

you downplay Israel aiding the US after 9-11
as nothing
why then did no one else do it

the US props up governments
around the world


You claim that all the other
nations in the region couldn't afford
to help because Israel keeps mashing them down

yes the Saudis have been greatly oppressed
by the Israelis
their rolls Royce limousines and private jets
and billions upon billions of oil dollars
are suffering under Israeli oppression

the Egyptians who have had peace
with Israel for thirty plus years
and receives billions in Aid from the US
are suffering under Israeli oppression

the Syrians who fund militant groups
to attack Israel
are suffering from Israeli oppression
[when was the last time]
[you heard about an Israeli attack]
[on Damascus]

I call simple bullshit
the countries in the region
are not downtrodden victims of Israel
it was simply
like it was for all of the world
more convenient to send words
then assistance.

it is you who are speaking rhetoric
falsehoods aimed only at
distorting the truth

Saudi Arabia for example
the Saudi king
bought full page advertisements
in most of the national periodicals
issuing a statement of sympathy
but
did not lift one finger to help
only Israel did that

not the Germans
who the US built

not the Japanese
who the US built

not anyone who has been helped by the US
even offered to help in our time of crisis
save one
Israel

cont...

cont...

[plural.livejournal.com]

that sir is called friendship
anyone is your friend
when you are handing out money
when you are throwing a party
but those who are there
when the shit hits the fan
are your true friends

Your logic sir
is impeccably flawed

the analogy of Canadian separatists
is a false one and belies
your true points of view
and your true bigotry

the US is not helping
terrorist or rebels separate land
from an friendly country
[which is of course the problem in your eyes]
it is helping
a state a country
defend itself from outside
aggression

the two situations are
completely unlink-able

what you were looking to illustrate
was the possibly legitimate point
that the US has helped your enemies
and therefore
why should you help it?

The US sends aid everywhere
there is not one Arab country
that has not benefited from US aid

some like Iraq or Iran
have received far more of the stick
than the carrot
but you have to remember
that they too
were once supported by the US

Israel will always be a friend to the US
not because of money
but because of brotherhood
and family

my brother lives in Israel
i live in America
i grew up in America
and half of my American senior class
from high school now resides in Israel

my friends
my family
live in Israel

that family tie
and the shared bond
of common democratic values
bonds our nations tighter
than money ever could

what is the US?s most important
interest in the middle east?
Oil aka liquid money

that's why we support
the repressive regime in Saudi Arabia
it is why we supported Iraq against Iran

why then
does the US support Israel
a country without oil?
and one who is hated
by every country in the region
that has oil?

money can not be the answer

I will disagree most vehemently
with your rhetoric
and labeling Israel as
the same as south Africa
because it is a blatant falsehood

I invite you to respond to
the original statements in my post
one by one
to argue each point on logic
not rhetoric

and once you have done that
I invite you to respond
to this comment

argue me with logic
and you will find a willing ear
argue me with rhetoric
and you waste both of our time

Re:

[softwhisper.livejournal.com]

regarding your points:

I didn't bother making a soft-worded, thought provoking post, the one-sided nature of the original seemed to cry out for reactionary blathering, and I'll be the first to admit, guilty as charged.

Now to address your points.

"the Jews were not exclusive
as you say, in the old testament"

You say that you've studied for half your life. Apparently you skipped Ezra? The first scribe, and Nehemiah both stated quite clearly that marrying Gentiles was not to be done. And they weren't referring to the faith of the people, but the race. (note, I'm using the book as an historical guide, not as a "book of stories" as most non-orthodox Christians do). I've encountered this barrier myself in my lifetime, and had a parents who wouldn't speak to each other otherwise, unite to end a relationship I had with a beautiful young woman who happened to be Jewish--not my parents, hers. So just based on that, your claim of racial neutrality rings false.

"you try to align
the Jews and the old testament
with ideals belonging to the nazis and the KKK
if that is the case
then why is it throughout history
it is we who have been slaughtered
with the ideals you attribute to us
there would have been no nazis
because we would have slaughtered them
well in advance "

again, lets go back to the book you've studied for half of your life: I can't even begin to name the "tribes" (read, other races) that were "punished in the name of God" (read, the writers at the time, being Jews, slaughtered in the name of land, and oh yeah, God too) It's no great shock that some cultures might have seen a very aggressive people who didn't enslave, didn't just take over, but committed genocide several times over and wrote of it proudly in a book, like it was some fantastic accomplishment, as being a group of bad apples. If you want to counter this point, please be sure to name every tribe that was wiped out for me, you're the expert on the book, (I can't be bothered to go look them ALL up, that would require a lot of reading) so you can qualify your statements that I'm wrong. From a more modern point of view, yes, what the Jewish people have endured since the middle ages has been hellish, and unwarranted. No one people, regardless of their beliefs, deserves to be treated like garbage. It's just odd that you seem to conveniently forget that that's what the people who followed Judaism did for nearly 1000 years, according to your own texts.

Now, let's approach the modern era. The Middle East is quite the hotbed. Do I agree with what some fringe Palestines do, bombing busses and such? Of course not. But I don't agree with you walking into a home on the West Bank and shooting children either. Don't bother denying it happens; anyone with a brain knows that everyone in the area doesn't care who they kill, as long as they're not "one of them", and that goes for both sides.

Right now, it's pretty much "us vs them" in the area. Sadly, Bill Clinton's agreement with both sides didn't come to fruition, mainly because an orthodox nut who thought that all palestinians should be slaughtered killed the enlightened Israelie President at the time, and the people reacted like a Palestinian had done it, voting in an complete right-winger, who had no intention of following the agreement. Benjie was many things, but a moderate, intelligent man, he wasn't.

Now to counter your insults. Feel free to insult me, you won't provoke me to insult you back. I don't need a shield to hide my bigotry: you're right about one thing, I am a bigot, I hate hatred. I'll always hate hatred, and every day of my life, I'll fight hatred. I'm not a Christian, or a Muslim, or Jew. I'm just me. I have my beliefs, and one of them is that hatred accomplishes nothing. And sadly right now, nothing is exactly what Israel is accomplishing in the Middle East.

in response

[plural.livejournal.com]

well I appreciate you making that effort now.

The post to which you responded was indeed one sided,
as it was in direct response to anothers views
and only responding to statements made by another
to which i wanted to provide the other point of view
if you read back to some of my other recent post
i am sure that you will find most of my statements
on the matter far more balanced.

while I was rather hoping you would address my points in the primary post, as you have brought logical and intelligent arguments
i will do my best to respond in kind

exclusivity is different than racism
i did not say they were not exclusive
i said that their position was not one
of
"we are saved and everyone else was damned."

yes it is instilled in our children
to marry someone of our faith
just as it is in almost every religion

the reason is not racism but commonality and lineage
the jewish people are both a race and a faith
according to our custom
our religion and our race are passed down through the mother
so my children will only be jewish if their mother is
where as my sisters children would be jewish
regardless of the fathers faith or race

this is not sexism nor racism but an acknowledgement of reality
in older days you could not prove the lineage of the father
but the mother was obvious
it also reflects the impactwhich a mother has upon her children
the mother imprints her children with her beliefs
far more strongly than the father
as much as we would like it to be
we are not equal in our childrens eyes

as i said in my previous comment
an orthodox jew has 613 commandments to follow
if i was to marry a woman
who did not believe and cherish these commandments
even if she respected my belief and faith
it would impede my ability to instill these beliefs in my children
and as such limit my effectiveness as a father

a father duty (and a mothers is no different)
is to instill in their children morality
and a belief in how one should live their life

judaism is a step by step handbook on how to live ones life
it details how to act in a fair and kindhearted manner
in all things, from your pets, to your servants to your family.

If i have one set of beliefs and my wife another, however similar
they will conflict and my children will either choose sides
or be confused
neither is an ideal option

As for your tale, I am sorry for your pain
but even as an orthodox jew, I have had similar experiences
parents who felt i was not
[and later i admitted they were right]
as committed to the ideals of judaism as their daughter,
or themselves.

and i will admit it is quite possible that
the parents of the girl you mention were racists
there are racists in every group of people

because one american is racist
or even if a million americans are racist
that does not make all americans racist
and to apply such a broad stroke
is a racist act in itself and hypocritical

I do not know how to convince you that there is a difference between
understanding that you live life by a different set of rules
and wanting to instill that lifestyle in your children and racism

i have been through many stages in my life
when it comes to dating women

at first i only dated jewish girls
because i understood how important it was to share common values

then as i grew older and more apart from my religion
i stopped seeing the reasons behind that

i met non-jewish girls who seemed to have more in common with me
philosophically than many jewish girls

so i started dating them i loved several of them
and almost married one of them
and in a particularly odd twist of fate
it was religion which played a strong hand in breaking us up

cont...

[city-glitter.livejournal.com]

The Israelis are just as wrong as the Palestinians. We continue to enable the Israelis and thumb our noses at the Palestinians.

There's no question to me about who's wrong there.