I have to admit that I've often harbored feelings of ALL of this bullshit in Iraq is Israel/arab bullshit, and we should let the devil have the lot of them to fight it out on their own.
And who cares about the oil?! we tough it out for a few years, and we can waltz in like we did in WWII after the russians had softened the germans up a bit.
thats my initial response to the whole beheading incident
is it horrible for his family sure but come on it isnt like he was working in new york, he knew he was taking serious risks and so did they.
I was watching some TV show a while back and one of the main characters [an american] was having a heart to heart with a domestic servant who had immigrated from russia, he said something to the effect of
"how do you, after all you have been through in your life, always remain so cheerful and positive"
to which she replied
"Americans always expect everything to be rosy, and every little bad thing that happens gets them upset and stressed out, the rest of the world expects everything to be shit, so when something shitty happens its part of life and they move on focusing on the good things"
The simple fact is that most of what humanity does isnt very nice, we excel at nothing better than killing/maiming/exploiting each other, but every so often we also manage to bring out the best of each other.
Should we as a society give up because most of the time shitty things happen? Our expectations are way out of whack, we not only expect only good things to happen, and can not handle bad things, we also have grown so accustomed to immediate gratification, that those good things must happen immediately.
After WW2, there were cases like now, of german gorilla resistance, there were cases of atrocities by american soldiers, looting of german towns was the norm and accepted, and the deaths of soldiers and civilians needlessly was fairly common.
If we had the same media coverage and the same mental perspective then as we do now the occupation and rebuilding of germany would not have lasted three weeks.
Do I disapprove of the prisoner situation, and many of the bush policies on Iraq, absolutely, but I understand that shitty things will happen (even if we should and do try to prevent/limit them) and that people will die, even sometimes horribly, but I really believe that if we can muster the guts to stick with it, it can make a huge difference in the long term, not only for the people of Iraq, but also for the stability of the middle east as a whole.
I also am certain the the U.S. performed horrible attrocities during that war (see the works of Reinhold Niebuhr... not that I've read them, it's just that I've been told they've been motivated by them).
What bothers me is why exactly this is OUR war? There is so much MORE suffering going on the world. Why does this particular piece of suffering deserve our attention?
Personally, I'd rather see blood spilled bringing civility to the Congo, than Iraq...
I also think that our approach is utterly wrong. We should have gone in with overwhelming force, and laid waste to the place, taking no prisoners... but that's me.
Personally, as an american who believes in the virtues and freedoms that we as a nation claim to, I would like to see the US put the world on notice, either clean up your act or we will do it for you.
I would like to see us use our military and economic weight to push dictators and despots around the world toward democratic reform, and the respect of civil rights.
If you dont play ball, first you get trade sanctions, if that doesnt work, we oust your ass. On a severity of situation basis of course. Look at the war on terror, how it has gotten Qaddafi playing ball, we can influence other countries without military force we just have to have the will to do so, and the will to back it up with military force if necessary.
We should apply this policy to our enemies and our allies alike, tell countries like Saudi Arabia to clean up their act and move toward democracy and civil rights, obviously our "allies" should be given more of a chance to improve their situation before military force is used, but I would want to see evidence each year of significant progress towards reform.
I would like to see Iraq as the first step, in a long and bloody process of rebuilding the world as a better place, but I do not fool myself into believe Americans ever believe enough in their principals to overcome even the least amount of selfishness.
Honestly, I think that if American foreign policy reflected our supposed national values, rather than our cowardice, selfishness, greed and laziness, that we would be far less hated in the world around us, even though we would be stepping on a whole lot more toes.
Besides, think of the economic benefit from rebuilding and restruc
Besides, think of the economic benefit from rebuilding and restructuring all those countries. I would support given american companies prime access to the contracts.
Lastly, the world has lost the stomach for effective warfare, because it is not pretty or humane, the roman legions, who were extremely effective at pacifying conquered provinces would do so by a process of decimation, literally to kill one out of every ten males, not only did that reduce the numbers of people who could resist the roman administration, but it scared the bejesus out of the rest of them. In the end the majority felt, life under the romans was better than assured destruction.
If you dont play ball, first you get trade sanctions, if that doesnt work, we oust your ass.
The only problem with this is people don't take kindly to having their pain in the ass ousted (merge the ideas from these to sayings: when you stopping getting your ass kicked on basis, you start to miss it... and he may be a mean SOB, but he's OUR mean SOB). Who do you put in their place? Do you just occupy the country until a suitable Ghandi rises from the masses to bring fourth the masses?
We should apply this policy to our enemies and our allies alike, tell countries like Saudi Arabia to clean up their act and move toward democracy and civil rights, obviously our "allies" should be given more of a chance to improve their situation before military force is used, but I would want to see evidence each year of significant progress towards reform.
Lovely sentiment. Tragically, it has been suggested that we don't have the manpower to adequately control Iraq (and keep our defenses up, while not having a draft)... what happens when/if the Caos from your plan begins to spread, and grow exponentially? We can't bring a force to bare that rises that fast... no within one generation anyway.
Honestly, I think that if American foreign policy reflected our supposed national values, rather than our cowardice, selfishness, greed and laziness, that we would be far less hated in the world around us, even though we would be stepping on a whole lot more toes.
I think that is correct... Conditional on the following:
IF we had not had the cold war to keep us in check, and compell us to lose face by installing our SOBs all over the world for the sake of expediency, and IF we'd had the stomach to keep the forces we'd had during WWII in place, and IF we didn't have economic forces beholden to the bottom line, and not the best path.
Lastly, the world has lost the stomach for effective warfare, because it is not pretty or humane,
I think that it was the coldwar that forged our distaste for such things. We began to believe our own propaganda we used to distinguish ourselves from the Soviets.
What I wouldn't give to have Humphry Bogart as president...
1) Do a marshall type plan, build a democracy, take ten years and do it right.
2) We have plenty of manpower to control Iraq, sure maybe we need to remove troops from places like Japan and Germany to balance things out. Secondly I am talking about a 50 year plan, stabilize Iraq, get it on the right road where our troops arent needed, atleast in the same numbers, and pick the next worst hostile dictatorship to invade. Everyone else can just get trade sanctioned to death. Sure such broad trade sanctions will hurt our economy some, but if we give american companies prefer access to Iraq and the like it will help balance it out.
3) So we lost face, and were stupid fucks for forty some years, does that mean we should continue be dumbasses. Look, the american powerhouse has an unprecedent ability to spread democracy and peace throughout the world, personally in my perspective, doing so is the only way to keep us from collapsing in on ourselves as we are doing now.
4) I would agree, but we need to grow a pair of balls and realize that lots of ugly things need doing, better to get em done and done correctly than waste our energies trying to make ugly things pretty for right now.
5) yeah bogie for president would be pretty sweet. But I would settle for someone who could actually lead with a little bit of guts and integrity.
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2004-05-12 01:43 pm (UTC)I have to admit that I've often harbored feelings of ALL of this bullshit in Iraq is Israel/arab bullshit, and we should let the devil have the lot of them to fight it out on their own.
And who cares about the oil?! we tough it out for a few years, and we can waltz in like we did in WWII after the russians had softened the germans up a bit.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-12 03:09 pm (UTC)Americans are fucking pussies
thats my initial response to the whole beheading incident
is it horrible for his family sure but come on it isnt like he was working in new york, he knew he was taking serious risks and so did they.
I was watching some TV show a while back and one of the main characters [an american] was having a heart to heart with a domestic servant who had immigrated from russia, he said something to the effect of
"how do you, after all you have been through in your life, always remain so cheerful and positive"
to which she replied
"Americans always expect everything to be rosy, and every little bad thing that happens gets them upset and stressed out, the rest of the world expects everything to be shit, so when something shitty happens its part of life and they move on focusing on the good things"
The simple fact is that most of what humanity does isnt very nice, we excel at nothing better than killing/maiming/exploiting each other, but every so often we also manage to bring out the best of each other.
Should we as a society give up because most of the time shitty things happen? Our expectations are way out of whack, we not only expect only good things to happen, and can not handle bad things, we also have grown so accustomed to immediate gratification, that those good things must happen immediately.
After WW2, there were cases like now, of german gorilla resistance, there were cases of atrocities by american soldiers, looting of german towns was the norm and accepted, and the deaths of soldiers and civilians needlessly was fairly common.
If we had the same media coverage and the same mental perspective then as we do now the occupation and rebuilding of germany would not have lasted three weeks.
Do I disapprove of the prisoner situation, and many of the bush policies on Iraq, absolutely, but I understand that shitty things will happen (even if we should and do try to prevent/limit them) and that people will die, even sometimes horribly, but I really believe that if we can muster the guts to stick with it, it can make a huge difference in the long term, not only for the people of Iraq, but also for the stability of the middle east as a whole.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-12 03:32 pm (UTC)I also am certain the the U.S. performed horrible attrocities during that war (see the works of Reinhold Niebuhr... not that I've read them, it's just that I've been told they've been motivated by them).
What bothers me is why exactly this is OUR war? There is so much MORE suffering going on the world. Why does this particular piece of suffering deserve our attention?
Personally, I'd rather see blood spilled bringing civility to the Congo, than Iraq...
I also think that our approach is utterly wrong. We should have gone in with overwhelming force, and laid waste to the place, taking no prisoners... but that's me.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-12 04:03 pm (UTC)Personally, as an american who believes in the virtues and freedoms that we as a nation claim to, I would like to see the US put the world on notice, either clean up your act or we will do it for you.
I would like to see us use our military and economic weight to push dictators and despots around the world toward democratic reform, and the respect of civil rights.
If you dont play ball, first you get trade sanctions, if that doesnt work, we oust your ass. On a severity of situation basis of course. Look at the war on terror, how it has gotten Qaddafi playing ball, we can influence other countries without military force we just have to have the will to do so, and the will to back it up with military force if necessary.
We should apply this policy to our enemies and our allies alike, tell countries like Saudi Arabia to clean up their act and move toward democracy and civil rights, obviously our "allies" should be given more of a chance to improve their situation before military force is used, but I would want to see evidence each year of significant progress towards reform.
I would like to see Iraq as the first step, in a long and bloody process of rebuilding the world as a better place, but I do not fool myself into believe Americans ever believe enough in their principals to overcome even the least amount of selfishness.
Honestly, I think that if American foreign policy reflected our supposed national values, rather than our cowardice, selfishness, greed and laziness, that we would be far less hated in the world around us, even though we would be stepping on a whole lot more toes.
Besides, think of the economic benefit from rebuilding and restruc
cont... (Fragging email char limit)
Date: 2004-05-12 04:03 pm (UTC)Lastly, the world has lost the stomach for effective warfare, because it is not pretty or humane, the roman legions, who were extremely effective at pacifying conquered provinces would do so by a process of decimation, literally to kill one out of every ten males, not only did that reduce the numbers of people who could resist the roman administration, but it scared the bejesus out of the rest of them. In the end the majority felt, life under the romans was better than assured destruction.
Re: cont... (Fragging email char limit)
Date: 2004-05-12 04:41 pm (UTC)The only problem with this is people don't take kindly to having their pain in the ass ousted (merge the ideas from these to sayings: when you stopping getting your ass kicked on basis, you start to miss it... and he may be a mean SOB, but he's OUR mean SOB). Who do you put in their place? Do you just occupy the country until a suitable Ghandi rises from the masses to bring fourth the masses?
We should apply this policy to our enemies and our allies alike, tell countries like Saudi Arabia to clean up their act and move toward democracy and civil rights, obviously our "allies" should be given more of a chance to improve their situation before military force is used, but I would want to see evidence each year of significant progress towards reform.
Lovely sentiment. Tragically, it has been suggested that we don't have the manpower to adequately control Iraq (and keep our defenses up, while not having a draft)... what happens when/if the Caos from your plan begins to spread, and grow exponentially? We can't bring a force to bare that rises that fast... no within one generation anyway.
Honestly, I think that if American foreign policy reflected our supposed national values, rather than our cowardice, selfishness, greed and laziness, that we would be far less hated in the world around us, even though we would be stepping on a whole lot more toes.
I think that is correct... Conditional on the following:
IF we had not had the cold war to keep us in check, and compell us to lose face by installing our SOBs all over the world for the sake of expediency, and IF we'd had the stomach to keep the forces we'd had during WWII in place, and IF we didn't have economic forces beholden to the bottom line, and not the best path.
Lastly, the world has lost the stomach for effective warfare, because it is not pretty or humane,
I think that it was the coldwar that forged our distaste for such things. We began to believe our own propaganda we used to distinguish ourselves from the Soviets.
What I wouldn't give to have Humphry Bogart as president...
Re: cont... (Fragging email char limit)
Date: 2004-05-12 06:57 pm (UTC)2) We have plenty of manpower to control Iraq, sure maybe we need to remove troops from places like Japan and Germany to balance things out. Secondly I am talking about a 50 year plan, stabilize Iraq, get it on the right road where our troops arent needed, atleast in the same numbers, and pick the next worst hostile dictatorship to invade. Everyone else can just get trade sanctioned to death. Sure such broad trade sanctions will hurt our economy some, but if we give american companies prefer access to Iraq and the like it will help balance it out.
3) So we lost face, and were stupid fucks for forty some years, does that mean we should continue be dumbasses. Look, the american powerhouse has an unprecedent ability to spread democracy and peace throughout the world, personally in my perspective, doing so is the only way to keep us from collapsing in on ourselves as we are doing now.
4) I would agree, but we need to grow a pair of balls and realize that lots of ugly things need doing, better to get em done and done correctly than waste our energies trying to make ugly things pretty for right now.
5) yeah bogie for president would be pretty sweet. But I would settle for someone who could actually lead with a little bit of guts and integrity.
the joy of a childish pipe dream
Re: cont... (Fragging email char limit)
Date: 2004-05-12 09:42 pm (UTC)marshal type/50 year plan for democracy/eternal world peace:
1) lay down the law by the barrel of a gun.
2) ????
3) everyone loves us!
Perhaps I've been reading too much /. lately.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-13 12:19 pm (UTC)Why the fuck should we care what you think? Contrary to popular belief, not every woman wants to bow down and worship at the temple of your penis.
yeah, but enough do that he can absolutely get away with it.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-13 12:33 pm (UTC)