Marriage and Last Names

[plural]

Call me an old fashioned insensitive prick

but the matter came up in a round about way in a friends journal and rather than hijack their journal for my own ends I thought I would write about it here

I do not understand the issue that some women make with keeping their maiden names once they are married. Quite frankly I find it distasteful, not that I would look down on someone that does, but for my own part, I find it an artificial distinction.

It is perhaps one thing to keep ones maiden name for professional reasons, however, I rather view her taking my name as part of the bargain when we get married [speaking entirely hypothetical of course]. I understand, at least in theory, the feminist argument, but it doesn't quite sell me. I rather think it is a poor choice in the realm of choosing your battles.

Does keeping her last name somehow make her more respected, liberated or treated better? not really
So what is the benefit?

In my family, historically women have kept their maiden names as a middle name, and to a certain extent their maiden names have been passed down to other women in the family, for example, my younger sisters middle name is my grandmothers maiden name. Maiden names have also taken a prominent place in the naming of family properties, many of the family properties are named either including or referencing the maiden names of wives or mothers.

It is strange to me writing this, as in a way, I am at odds with myself, I feel as if I must disguise some fairly strong feelings on the point, in order to feel more politically correct, and this bothers me. I want to say that I would not consider marrying a woman unless she was willing to take my last name, but it seems a little harsh to me, not to mention, I would like to avoid being made a liar in the future, as whatever I feel now may not seem so important should I be faced with a woman I want to marry who finds it important to keep her name.

I desire for a wife, an empowered woman, and an equal partner, and to a certain extent, being so blunt here makes me feel uncomfortable in that I feel like it might give a contrary impression, but when it comes down to it, I do feel rather strongly about it, so I am stuck between feeling like I may be misconstrued as something I am not or being dishonest with my journal and my readers, by minimizing or trivializing how I feel.

In my past serious relationships, there has never been a question about it, in most cases the women were not particularly attached to their last names, or were from old fashioned families where such was simply the expectation from a very young age.

I realize there will be many of you who disagree with my stance and what I have written, and I would love to hear your perspective, why it is important to you, what you think it accomplishes, and any other thoughts you have on the matter.

Comments

[asrei.livejournal.com]

I agree.
I would shuffle my maiden name - to my middle name - and take his last name.

If anything - for respect.

[lamotocyclette.livejournal.com]

If I marry, I will take my husband's name. BUT there are a few good reasons for not doing so:
1. The original reason for the woman taking the man's name is because it implied ownership of the woman. In fact, in some cultures the name is modified. For example, in some easter european cultures the woman adds "ova" to her husband's last name, which literally translates to "property of."
2. If I was already published under my maiden name.
3. My family name is dying. We keep having girls! As a result, I can see why my sister wished to keep our name alive as long as possible.

[msliminal.livejournal.com]

I might be getting married soon, and I think I'm going to keep my last name. I'm keeping it for the shallowest of reasons: my name is fan-tab-u-lous-ly perfect in every way. It rolls off the tongue so beautifully and it just shouldn't be fucked with.

His last name is perfectly fine in and of itself, but it doesn't go well with mine. Regardless, if you knew my name, you might agree that it should remain intact.

Fortunately for me, I've published a couple of things so I have a more legitimate excuse than that.

[lillim.livejournal.com]

(Hi, I added you via asrei, hope you dont mind :) )
It's an interesting topic. Hypothetically speaking, I wouldn't take my husband's surname as my own. Nor, would i necessarily 'double barrel' both surnames, unless he's willing to do so as well. I wouldnt feel comfortable giving up my last name, as it's part of who I am, nor would i expect my partner to. I'm aware it's a very non-traditionalist viewpoint, and it goes against my family's beliefs (Im from a fairly strict roman catholic background). As to why I'd prefer not to, well that becomes slightly cloudy. Without sounding like a raving feminist, I dont like the slight sense of possessiveness it implies. It smacks too much of the old 'woman given away to the man's family' viewpoint. The only thing I think it achieves is a publically recogniseable sign of a union - 'mr and mrs husbands-last-name'

I think, though , that it really comes down to the individuals and the situation. My Aunt, for example, kept her maiden name so her son could have it included in his surname, as my grandparents had no sons, and he will be the last male to carry their family name.

Im curious - how would you view a man who chooses to take his wife's family name? That removes the air of 'artificial distinction' and still indicates their union.

[atillathehung.livejournal.com]

Sure thing!

But first, I don't think my preferences should be forced on anyone. Each couple should make its own choice. Since my current significant other and future wife feels strongly that she maintains her identity, I will back her...and I don't want anybody referring to her as Mrs. Justin D'Hung.

The biggest tangible benefit is a sign of respect: It shows we are equals, with neither being subordinate to the other. There is no reason on Planet Earth aside from tradition that a woman should give up her own name and take a man's. None at all.

It is a small distinction, a small bone of contention in the greater picure of leveling the field between the sexes. However, you have to start someplace. Also, language is a great reflection of our values. By referring to a woman by the courtesy title "Mrs." and then using her husband's first name, it automatically reflects a patriarchal bias and elevates the male above the female and turns her into a posession. I will not play that game: Sarah doesn't want it, and any woman who would want it simply wouldn't be the right person for me to spend my life with.

But that doesn't mean I'd force that on anyone else, but I think it's something that deserves some reflection.

[yud.livejournal.com]

Well, my fiancée doesn't want to take my last name when we get married, and I'm perfectly fine with it. She's rather attached to her last name, and I'm not so fond of my own that I'd want to force it on her. I know it's tradition for the female to take the male's last name, but it just doesn't seem so important to me. She'll still be my wife no matter what her last name is.

One of her motivations is that since she's strongly attached to her last name, she's afraid that it will 'die out' since she can't imagine her brother ever settling down and getting married and having kids. So she'd like to have the kids take her last name instead of mine, and again, it doesn't really make a big difference to me. I've got four brothers, so I don't think my last name is in any danger of disappearing.

The whole issue of last names really isn't important to me at all, and maybe I'm just weird that way. I guess names in general are a weird issue with me, since I'm fond of calling people by names other than their given name. I've invented a number of fictional names (first and last) that I use online.

[atillathehung.livejournal.com]

And what equivalent gesture of respect would your future husband make?

[plural.livejournal.com]

I agree entirely that it should be a choice left to each couple. I also find distaste in the mannerism of referring to someone as Mrs John Doe

I would prefer she be referred to as Mrs Jane Doe

While I find Mr & Mrs John Doe to be perfectly acceptible when the primary addressant would be myself, I would expect mail addressed to both of us to include both of our names and see no issue with mail primarily addressed to her taking the form of Mr & Mrs Jane Doe. (or Mrs & Mr Jane Doe)

I am not in anyway looking to subjugate my wife or elevate myself, I believe quite strongly in the equality of partnership.

[plural.livejournal.com]

well as I said, in my family, we name houses after their family name, and often use it as a middle name, if nothing else to show respect and maintain a continuity with the history of our combined family.

In a way, I suppose it is a different matter, but I always sensed as a boy, that it was a practice of honoring the lineage

old fashioned = rebellion

[mselfie.livejournal.com]

i've made a (not very huge) name for myself in the RPG industry, as being part of maximum cng, serving as their editor. i would not have been brought on board if not for my future husband. we talked about the name change thing, and came up with a reasonable compromise.

in all currently established works and new releases for those works, i'll keep the name already in use (emily foster)
in future projects, i'll be listed as emily jackson.
my email for all correspondance with the company will stay efoster.
and for all other purposes, including my paying day job, i'll have my name changed to emily jackson.

i didn't want to lose the reputation that i'd earned with my maiden name, but i also wanted to show him that i respected the tradition of taking his name. the issue itself was a non-issue until i realized that it would be hard to transition to a new name with my name in print and known in smallish circles. i'd already planned on taking his name, just because its expected.

so little in marriage is held to be true these days. most people go so far as to use marriage as a trial ground for the relationship. which i firmly disagree with, and until i'd met noctrnlsunshine, i hadn't planned on ever getting married as a form of rebellion. as in, "marriage isn't important enough for you to try and make it work, mr. 3 wives later, so what does it matter if i get married to partnerx or not." it was scandleous in my family to be living with someone out of wedlock, and i was greatly enjoying their discomfort as they tried to treat each incoming partner as their future in-law.

but, now i think that the act of marriage is more important than my rebellion. that showing my partner that i'm 100% committed to them is worth putting up with society's changed perspective of marriage. its with that viewpoint that i'm consenting to a more elaborate wedding than what i would've picked for myself, the engagement ring with more gems than i needed, and taking his name when its not really necessary.

i guess i'm thinking if i'm going to do it, i might as well do it right, you know?

[resilience.livejournal.com]

I can see both sides of the issue.

I might like to keep my name because I'd like to seem more independent.

At this point, I'd rather get rid of my last name because my Dad's a punk. Also, it's hard to spell and it stinks to give it out at restaurants. :)

achariya rezak sounds cooler than achariya stone anyway

[weetanya.livejournal.com]

to be honest, a woman's maiden name is her father's. why is it so much more empowered to keep one man's name over another's?

plus, it's a cool change that women can make -- it's a new identity. changing from one state of being (not wife) to another.

if yer gonna be a wife, might as well BE a wife.

[damion.livejournal.com]

I find it most aggravating when each person keeps their own name, simply from an aesthetic point of view when it comes to the naming of children. Hyphenated names are ugly as hell.

[gryphon.livejournal.com]

The worst I will probably do is hyphenate.

Although where I live, it's not common practice *not* to take the husband's last name. It is, however, common to move the maiden name to middle name status, which the rest of the children will carry.

For example: Mr. John Doe marries Ms. Jane Dew (bad example, but for illustration purposes...)

After marriage, Ms. Jane Dew Becomes Mrs. Jane Dew Doe.

If they have a kid, Tom, he would be known fully as Tom Dew Doe.

And that goes for just about everyone here, and it's a system that works. No confusion with middle names. You can, however, give your kid as many "first" names as you want.

I believe it comes from the Spanish habit of having two last names, separated by a "y" (and). Case of Tom Dew Doe, he'd be traditionally known here as Tom Doe y Dew.

Although there are indeed compelling reasons to keep one's maiden name (as some of your other replies stated), I think it's less confusing to take the husband's last name. Not for tones of "ownership" or anything, but for family unity. Kind of like a sports team. I mean, you can't have someone from the Detroit Pistons join the LA Lakers and insist on still being a Piston, right? Or a Piston-Laker, for that matter.

Just my two cents.

[ipsafictura.livejournal.com]

My favorite solution to the whole name issue was one that a friend came up with her (unfortunately now ex) fiancee. They were going to make up a new name for both of them to take. It doesn't have the unpleasant tang of feminism that a woman retaining her maiden name does, nor the unpleasant tang of patriarchy that comes from the idea of a womam being forced to give up her own name in favor of a man's. I like it, and forced with the unpleasant possibility of an uncharmingly alliterative name should I take my SO's last name I'm seriously considering it.

[thawaltzingfool.livejournal.com]

First, I don't think you need to fear what your audience thinks of you, if they don't like what you have to say they can scroll past or click you off their list.

Second, I can see both sides of this issue, as I can with many issues, and I think all reasons make complete sense. I think many women choose to keep their name because it is their name. We have a lot of our identity in our names, would you find it easy to drop your family's name and adopt another? I think that is a good question to ask a man and many will say yes, they'd do it, for arguments sake, but when it comes down to it they'll be against it because their name is their name.

I took my ex-husbands name without a second thought because I wanted to show solidarity and I really liked the idea of being Mrs. Burke and our children having the same last name and being referred to as "The Burkes" as a family. We are no longer together, but I've kept his last name because it is also my daughter's last name. Some days I think about going back to my maiden name, but I don't feel like her anymore, I don't feel like any of my last names really.

All that being said, when on stage I use my maiden name. As an actor I am more comfortable using my name, my original name. And even if I get married again and take my new husband's last name, when on stage I will still use my maiden name.

I'm rambling, but my point is, I don't think a woman always keeps her last name to be more respected, liberated or treated better. I think she keeps it because it is her name, the same as your name is your name and I'm sure you wouldn't part with it so easily.

Re: achariya rezak sounds cooler than achariya stone anyway

[xelyn23.livejournal.com]

I agree with you and plural on this. Most of what the EXTREME feminists seem to go on is how women have been treated unfairly in past history (which still holds true to some individuals today). I think it's a rather medieval way of thinking in itself. How do we move forward and away from that thought process if we continue to dwell on it? If a woman is confident in her own individuality, why would a name change make them any different?

Then again, if it's simply because they just *want* to keep their maiden name for esthetics and/or it rolls-off the tongue better than sure, why not.

There was also someone who had an S.O. who kept her maiden name because her family surname was dying off...I think that's another good reason.

I also agree with not changing the name if the woman has published work under her name.

But the reason of: "because men have been treating women unfairly for centuries and I don't want to contribute to that" doesn't seem like they're basing the reason on what they want (as a couple since they are going to married after all) but on what the history books said. I say fuck it all and do what you want and don't worry about the past...let's move forward.

I know a guy who took his gal's last name, now that's the best yet :)

[kiki679.livejournal.com]

i'm not sure what i'd do as i've not been required to make that decision yet. to be honest, i've wavered between both of those sides.

but i've also had the idea that it would be nice if you (you being husband and wife) picked a new name. An entirely fresh start.

I will say that I've seen it from the perspective of the woman who is no longer married to the man whose name she took. She went through the trouble of changing her name the first time (and, yes, there is quite a bit of paperwork and red tape you have to go through to get your name changed). And now she is going through that trouble in reverse (same paperwork and red tape again).

[zaiah.livejournal.com]

Ah... But she may not (technically - according to the "rules") be caled Mrs. Jane Doe. Mrs. is 'Mistress of' when she is called Mrs. Doe it IMPLIES the Mrs. John Doe.

If she changes her name but still wishes to be adressed as Jane - according to the "traditional way" she would still need to be Ms. Jane Doe.

[ignote.livejournal.com]

I have a very uncommon last name, and it *is* who I am. I'm proud of my family and I feel that it is a part of who I am. I would be reluctant to simply erase it and fill in the blank.

[zaiah.livejournal.com]

Yer an old fashioned insensitive prick. :)

I kept my name because it is exactly that.. MY name.

I've invested time and effort in chronicling the 400 years of history of that name's lineage in this country and identify with it heavily.

That it is my father's last name mattered not - there was history there for me and a connection with something greater than my small disjointed nuclear family.

My husband kept his last name - it has his history. He felt it would be dishonoring his parents (who named him) to change it.. nor did he wish to hyphenate.

My daughter has the same last name as I because, in the words of my husband, a child should share the same name as their mother.

We considered just me hyphenating (ugly - Loooong) and both hyphenating. We considered a fictitious or blended name (cheesy!). And in the end - we each kept our own name.

It does not make us any less of a family and it easily helps to weed out those who really know us and those who wish to pretend to. It is amazing how difficult it is for some people to accept this name thing.. and how easy it is in others.

Governmental agencies have never batted an eye - people wishing to send us a wedding invitation? Cry havoc and set the dogs of war upon me for not giving them an easy out.

We went to an ancestral name to name the property and address all domestic business that way so as not to slight anyone in the family with one last name over another.

Ideally? I think the world could exist without surnames altogether - but I rather like mine and won't abandon it easily for another.

Priorities?

[nandan.livejournal.com]

It is simply more practical if a family all has the same name, if you're going to have kids, but it shouldn't matter for one instant if it is the woman's name or the man's.

I'd be offended if some man was so wed to an outdated arbitrary tradition that he refused to even consider taking my name instead of vice versa. And I'd be very offended if a man said he didn't want to marry me for any reason as trivial as my wanting to keep my own name. That to me would indicate a truly shocking level of rigidity, and I'd be very nervous that we'd end up living in a trailor with him screaming at me if I forgot to squeegee the bathroom walls.

[budhaboy.livejournal.com]

Heh.

H had this inane idea of making her last name the combination of her maiden name and my name with no hyphen. So she'd end up having four names: firstname middlename maidenname myname.

She fought the good fight for years correcting people when they had the audacity to drop the middle name and force her to have the name firstname maidenname myname.

A visionary to be sure, but in a don quxote sort of way.

She finally acquiesced when we made it to MD. She said something about it not being so bad to be a stepford wife, and made a batch of cookies.

[kitanaor.livejournal.com]

You seem to contradict yourself. You want an equal partner, but she has to take your name? Why don't you take hers?