Whoops somebody got the PR Spin all fucked up on this one

[plural]

Apparently it wasnt a massacre,
but a glorious victory of the palestinian resistance

Jenin 'massacre' reduced to death toll of 56

JENIN, West Bank
Palestinian officials yesterday put the death toll at 56 in the two-week Israeli assault on Jenin, dropping claims of a massacre of 500 that had sparked demands for a U.N. investigation.

The official Palestinian body count, which is not disproportionate to the 33 Israeli soldiers killed in the incursion, was disclosed by Kadoura Mousa Kadoura, the director of Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement for the northern West Bank, after a team of four Palestinian-appointed investigators reported to him in his Jenin office.

[Two weeks ago, when European and particularly London newspapers were reporting estimates of "hundreds" massacred, Israeli sources in Washington said they expected the Palestinian toll to reach "45 to 55."]

Click here for the complete text

Paul Martin - Washington Times

thanks to ikilled007 for the link

Comments

Re: are we counting who does more bad things...?

[city-glitter.livejournal.com]

1) This is why I'm not inclined to admire those in the "service," as I'm told I should. Yeah, do whatever the government tells you to. That takes balls. It was a popular defense at the Nuremburg trials.

2) They have more right to the land because of the simple fact that the Israelis are attempting to displace them in large numbers after they've been there for some time.

[plural.livejournal.com]

I agree, that a person in the service is required to disregard an unlawful or immoral order, and that simply following orders is no excuse.

as for your second point, it is historically inaccurate, Israel did not displace the vast majority of the palestinians, nor does its official policy seek to. I will admit that there are instances where for security reason or other purposes a village was evacuated or moved, we could argue the validity of these actions but they count for only a tiny fraction of the palestinian population. The vast majority of the palestinians fled Israel, voluntarily, before Israel was created in 1948. They saw that a jewish state was being created and did not want to live in it. This would be the same as a french person fleeing france now to avoid living under a government ruled by LePen. There were no Israeli soldiers rounding them up and putting them on boats, because, Israel didn't exist.

You could blame the UN for creating a Jewish State, but remember that at the same time they also created a palestinian state beside it. A palestinian state which was stillborn and occupied for 19 years by their arab brethren

You could argue that they have a right to self governance, but historically they have never done so, in 1948 the palestinian state was destroyed at the same moment it was created, by the its Arab Neighbors, they attempted to destroy israel in the same manner and failed.

Israel did not deprive the palestinians of self governance, the arabs, and more specifically the Arab legion of Jordan did. Israel did not capture and occupy palestinian lands in 1967, it captured and occupied Jordanian lands.

And if you look to all the documents and treaties from the time period, negotiations for peace, they all refer to israel returning the land to the jordanians, not to the palestinians. The concept of a palestinian state has only recently been re-introduced to the international stage in the last twenty years, when Jordan and the Arab states finally accepted that Israel was there to stay and that the militarily could not take back the land.

[city-glitter.livejournal.com]

What entertains me so much about the entire situation is that people crapped their pants when Hitler recommended resettling Jews in Madagascar...but Israel is fine. Why is that? Because it's in the Talmud?

Israel is currently attempting to displace, and is indeed killing, large numbers of Palestinians. Furthermore, AMERICAN Jews are insane enough to think they can suddenly appear on the shore's of Tzena's Land and have nice pieces of Palestinian land. That is crap.

It is an attempt at theocracy every bit as vile as any fundamentalist Islamic government, supported by Americans who see no other way to use religion to influence world conditions.

[plural.livejournal.com]

I think that anyone who believes that Hitler desires would have been satisfied by relocation needs to review the history. Hitler didnt attempt to expel the jews from his country and others, he attempted to exterminate them.

And yes, Madagascar would not be acceptible, even if the UN suggested it. The land of israel is my peoples ancestral home, a land that we were forcibly expelled from and never stopped desiring to return to. Since the jews were finally expelled by the romans in the early ADs every government that has ruled the land, has one persectuted the jews living there and two refused to allow jews to move there. The british turned back thousands of refugees, denying them the opportunity to enter palestine, after every country in the world refused them. Many of these refugees ended up dying in hitlers death camps. People who escaped and we sent back because of politics.

That you compare Israel to a fundamentalist government, illuminates both your bias, and your lack of understanding of the situation.

Israel is first and foremost a democracy. It is an ethnic state, and does have significant laws which relate to the religious beliefs of the majority of that ethnicity.

Islamic Fundamentalist states, repress their citizens, abuse their women, and inflict harsh penalties upon those who do not stictly follow their religious beliefs.

Israel allows for all forms of religious devotion, short of satanism. It people and women, are free to persue life with liberty.
And most importantly equal justice under the law.

An Israeli arab friend of mine, owns a small agricultural business, one year he bought seeds from a large israeli company. The seeds were defective, the company offered to refund the

post got cut, continued here

[plural.livejournal.com]

The seeds were defective, the company offered to refund the money he paid for the seeds, but no more. He felt that he had a right to be compensated for the lost of profit he suffered because he did not have a product to sell. He sued them in an israeli court, and won. I was talking to him about this, and he said, that even with the hardships of being an arab in israel, he would not choose to live under Arab rule, because in an Arab country, he would never have won that lawsuit, and recieved justice.

Those are his words not mine, and I will not defend them but they opened my eyes greatly.

Israel is not supported out of american interests in the region. American interests in the middle east are dominated by Oil, Israel has almost no oil. but America continues to support it, even though it causes them great difficult with those that have the Oil. Particularly Saudi Arabia.

Why does America support israel then, if it is not in its best interest.

For two reasons, One is obviously the American Jewry, and the other because Israel is a democracy, and is the only country in the region which has consistantly be a friend to America. Israel bombed Iraqi factories, creating nuclear and biological weapons twenty years ago. Everyone knew they were there, but because of Isreal, when Iraq invaded Kuwait, they did not have nuclear weapons to use.

There are many other reasons of course, some noble, some not. I truely wish that you could somehow see beyond your bias, realize that it is a completely confused and screwed up situation that doesnt have any easy answers.

Am I biased? absolutely, I feel that Israel, its men women and children have a right to exist, in that place, and live in peace.

I also feel that based on history, not on religion, the Jews have an equal claim to the land as any other party.

I believe very strongly that the palestinians should have their own state, but I am not willing to sacrifice the state of israel to give it to them, nor am i willing to support the creation of a state dedicated to destroying us. Only if there can be peace, can there be a palestinian state.

Re: post got cut, continued here

[city-glitter.livejournal.com]

While Hitler certainly did attempt to exterminate the Jews, there was an early phase in which he spoke of resettling them on Madagascar. If only he had done that instead...

I think it's about time you sat down and accepted that Judaism is essentially a religion. It's time to stop perceiving yourselves as God's Chosen People, to live in the modern world and deal with the fact that you aren't better than anyone else.

"Your ancestral home." I believe we've gone over this before. If I returned to my ancestral home in Saxony and demanded the land back, I would be laughed out of court. And yes, my family was forced to leave: my paternal grandfather was pinned as a Nazi and was quite eager to get out of Germany towards the end of the war. Yet I can content myself with what my family has earned and collected since then, rather than running off to faraway deserts to snatch land away from largely unsuspecting civilians.

The Holocaust became the travesty it was because of the same sort of head-in-the-sand politics that exacerbate the situation in the Middle East today. A single life lost for such foolish eugenicist barbarianism was bad enough...but there was no need for it to be on such a scale. The Holocaust is nearly as much the fault of those who turned their heads as it is those who did the killing.

The Israeli government is quite fundamentalist. Although the appearances are that the government is run by reform and moderate Jews, the important fact to remember is that Israel was a nation formed on the basis of a religion. And as long as the Israeli government continues to justify their actions by claiming it's their right as Israelis, they qualify as fundamentalists. And that nation qualifies as a theocracy. There's not room for a sheet of paper between church and state.

How do you define democracy?

As a born citizen of the country strangely considered by most to be the foremost example of democracy in the world, I find it easy to look at the Constitution, our set of ideals, and the way things are...and find discrepancies. Obviously not every vote counts. Obviously not every individual is equal to his neighbor or his Congressman. Obviously not every American enjoys the rights to which they are entitled by their very existence as a human being. And the only difference between us and Israel is that we're committing our crimes on a much larger scale.

This reminds me very much of several hundred conversations I've had with my father, generally culminating in my being screamed at. While some of the details of the Islamic fundamentalist states are certainly repugnant, look at the essential nature of Israel. It is a nation formed on the basis of a religion. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it might very well be a duck.

The reasons behind our supporting Israel are as transparent as Saran Wrap, and I have stated them four or five times over the course of this and past debates on these manners.

Of course, there's what I've forgotten to mention up until now...which is that we're Israel's bitch. It's very sad, really. The "greatest nation on Earth" controlled by fear and said nation's inherent religious fundamentalism to kowtow to a sad little piece of land that would be absolutely nothing if we and our allies hadn't fed it weapons and protection over the past fifty years or so. It's embarrassing. It's definitely in our best interest, because we're AFRAID.

Of course you're not willing to sacrifice the state of Israel. That's where you're from. I wouldn't expect you to be. Nevertheless, you and your countrymen are out of line and I look forward to the day your tyranny and the desperate, foolish lashings-out of Palestinian and other Arab "martyrs" is peacefully ended. Whether you coexist with the Palestinians, or each of you have your own state, I don't care. The current situation is intolerable from a human rights perspective, and I believe in my heart that it's only a matter of time until everyone realizes it and comes to a consensus that it isn't worth the lives.

[estrie.livejournal.com]

For every Jewish settlement, there are ten non-Jewish settlements in an area previously agreed to be free of any settlements.

[nutmeg.livejournal.com]

And most of all, I do not apologize that I am unable to achieve all of these things, in only ten lines.

Nor should you in your own journal! Oh my goodness.

I may disagree with you but for goodness sake say all you want in what ever manner you want, especially in your own journal.

[softwhisper.livejournal.com]

oh, pish tosh. If one is going to argue a point, it should be done well. He's obviously *trying* to. I'm offering tips. I'm sorry that seems to offend you.

[plural.livejournal.com]

I happen to argue my points very well, even if I do not conform to ideals of debate or even of writing. People understand my position and my point of view, for me this and my understanding their point of view, is more important than arguing the point.