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pluralyour words
"Recall, please:
The Palestinians were there first.
The only Israeli claim to the region is religious,
which is crap. No offense to anyone so inclined religiously.
That renders the argument moot for me."
when?
the Jewish claim to the land
has religious basis
but it also has historical basis
my people have inhabited the land
for five thousand years
sure we have been occupied
and foreign governments have ruled us
but
honey that land has switched hands
so many times in the past 5000 years
no one could have a claim based on rulership
Most recently it is the Israelis who control the land
before Israel it was the British
before the British it was the Ottomans
before the Ottomans it was the crusaders from Europe
before the crusaders it was Omar, the Second Caliph of Islam
before Omar it was the Romans
before the Romans it was the Jews
before the Jews it was the Greeks
before the Greeks it was the Jews
before the Jews it was the Babylonians
before the Babylonians it was the Jews
before the Jews it was the Canaanites
and that's just what
three thousand years of history tells us
fact, documented history, not religious texts
if you follow the old testament
which is accepted by both the Jews and the Muslims
the pattern continues for another
two thousand years
the simple fact is
that there have been Jews living in israel
for the past five thousand years
the governments have changed
the populations have changed
but there have always been Jews
yearning for a Jewish state
and around the world
in every country
in every year
my people wished
to go home
In the celebration of passover
which has just recently passed
it is said
as it has been for two thousand years
"Le shana haba beh yerushaliem"
"Next year may we be in Jerusalem"
You say that the palestinians
were there first
and all other arguments become moot
but they were not there first
because quite simply
they didn't exist
the Palestinians were created as a people
by the British government circa the 1930s
how can they lay claims of precedence going back
five thousand years?
before the 1930s there was no Palestine
there were no Palestinians
there were Jews and there were Arabs
no Israelis,
no Palestinians
there were also
Druse
Turks
Persians
Greeks
Christians
but if you look
throughout history
not religion or tales
but historical facts
verified by multiple independent sources
there is one group of people
who have consistently lived in Judea
who have ruled Judea more frequently
than any other
from the beginning of our historical records
and that is the Jews
so while that may not be enough
to lay claim to the land in the modern day
your argument of Palestinian precedence is simply
incorrect and unsubstantiated by fact
the first Jew
Abraham
five thousand some years ago
travelled to where Jerusalem would one day stand
climbed the hill and lay his son down on a stone
to be sacrificed to his god
it was there that the story of the burning bush occurred
it was that same stone that Mohammed ascended to heaven
three thousand years later
in america we claim the land we live upon
it is ours
we purchased it and have right to it
based on our inhabitance
[depending on where you live]
of less than two hundred years
even if you live in Boston or Virginia
[two of the oldest settlements]
you can only claim three or four hundred years
yet my people have lived
in Judea for five thousand years
and you claim that we have no right to be there?
you live on land that was bought with
treachery and deceit
atrocity and cruelty
our government made treaties with the Indians
and then broke them
time and time again
when the Indians protested
we slaughtered them
before you plaster my people
with accusations un-based in fact
and making uneducated statements
perhaps you should start by looking at
the place you rest your head
the land you live on
and the blood of innocents
that purchased it
please do not take this
as a personal attack
i am not meaning to insult you
or degrade you
but i have heard
this argument made
too many times
by sympathetic Americans
who know little about the situation there
[or our own history as well]
and
it is difficult for me to respond
without emotion
i was born in America
raised in America
but every time i go to Jerusalem
stand before the wailing wall
the last remaining wall of our sacred temple
deep in my soul
i know i have come home
i do not expect you to value
this internal emotion of mine
or even to understand it
[as i hardly understand it myself]
but it is there
my blood and my soul
are deeply connected to that place
that is why
even when haunted and consumed by nightmares
and daylight visions
i cannot banish from my mind
i still believe
and still will fight
for our right to live in our home
i may not change your mind
but perhaps you will understand where i come from
and understand the historical clusterfuck that exists there
"Recall, please:
The Palestinians were there first.
The only Israeli claim to the region is religious,
which is crap. No offense to anyone so inclined religiously.
That renders the argument moot for me."
when?
the Jewish claim to the land
has religious basis
but it also has historical basis
my people have inhabited the land
for five thousand years
sure we have been occupied
and foreign governments have ruled us
but
honey that land has switched hands
so many times in the past 5000 years
no one could have a claim based on rulership
Most recently it is the Israelis who control the land
before Israel it was the British
before the British it was the Ottomans
before the Ottomans it was the crusaders from Europe
before the crusaders it was Omar, the Second Caliph of Islam
before Omar it was the Romans
before the Romans it was the Jews
before the Jews it was the Greeks
before the Greeks it was the Jews
before the Jews it was the Babylonians
before the Babylonians it was the Jews
before the Jews it was the Canaanites
and that's just what
three thousand years of history tells us
fact, documented history, not religious texts
if you follow the old testament
which is accepted by both the Jews and the Muslims
the pattern continues for another
two thousand years
the simple fact is
that there have been Jews living in israel
for the past five thousand years
the governments have changed
the populations have changed
but there have always been Jews
yearning for a Jewish state
and around the world
in every country
in every year
my people wished
to go home
In the celebration of passover
which has just recently passed
it is said
as it has been for two thousand years
"Le shana haba beh yerushaliem"
"Next year may we be in Jerusalem"
You say that the palestinians
were there first
and all other arguments become moot
but they were not there first
because quite simply
they didn't exist
the Palestinians were created as a people
by the British government circa the 1930s
how can they lay claims of precedence going back
five thousand years?
before the 1930s there was no Palestine
there were no Palestinians
there were Jews and there were Arabs
no Israelis,
no Palestinians
there were also
Druse
Turks
Persians
Greeks
Christians
but if you look
throughout history
not religion or tales
but historical facts
verified by multiple independent sources
there is one group of people
who have consistently lived in Judea
who have ruled Judea more frequently
than any other
from the beginning of our historical records
and that is the Jews
so while that may not be enough
to lay claim to the land in the modern day
your argument of Palestinian precedence is simply
incorrect and unsubstantiated by fact
the first Jew
Abraham
five thousand some years ago
travelled to where Jerusalem would one day stand
climbed the hill and lay his son down on a stone
to be sacrificed to his god
it was there that the story of the burning bush occurred
it was that same stone that Mohammed ascended to heaven
three thousand years later
in america we claim the land we live upon
it is ours
we purchased it and have right to it
based on our inhabitance
[depending on where you live]
of less than two hundred years
even if you live in Boston or Virginia
[two of the oldest settlements]
you can only claim three or four hundred years
yet my people have lived
in Judea for five thousand years
and you claim that we have no right to be there?
you live on land that was bought with
treachery and deceit
atrocity and cruelty
our government made treaties with the Indians
and then broke them
time and time again
when the Indians protested
we slaughtered them
before you plaster my people
with accusations un-based in fact
and making uneducated statements
perhaps you should start by looking at
the place you rest your head
the land you live on
and the blood of innocents
that purchased it
please do not take this
as a personal attack
i am not meaning to insult you
or degrade you
but i have heard
this argument made
too many times
by sympathetic Americans
who know little about the situation there
[or our own history as well]
and
it is difficult for me to respond
without emotion
i was born in America
raised in America
but every time i go to Jerusalem
stand before the wailing wall
the last remaining wall of our sacred temple
deep in my soul
i know i have come home
i do not expect you to value
this internal emotion of mine
or even to understand it
[as i hardly understand it myself]
but it is there
my blood and my soul
are deeply connected to that place
that is why
even when haunted and consumed by nightmares
and daylight visions
i cannot banish from my mind
i still believe
and still will fight
for our right to live in our home
i may not change your mind
but perhaps you will understand where i come from
and understand the historical clusterfuck that exists there
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no subject
Date: 2002-04-10 05:10 pm (UTC)i understand
see here in america
it is easy to distinguish
the history is recent
our methods of documenting it are advanced
we can see what we have done
to the natives
and reflect upon it
imagine if the US was conquered
and the invading tribe
did to us what we did to the Indians
and then a few hundred years later
Another Tribe invaded and did the same thing
to this latest tribe
and so on
and so on
for five thousand years
whos land is it then?
is it the indians land?
is it american land?
does it belong to whomever lives there now?
what if a people have occupied it
for the last thousand years
sure they didnt steal it from the indians
we did
and someone else stole it from us
and someone else stole it from them
etc
etc
but the fact of the matter
is that the land was originally stolen
from the indians
if my car is stolen
and then it is stolen from the car theif
who owns the car?
me or the car theif?
the problem here becomes even more complex
because the indians didnt own the land
didnt have the concept of ownership
to them the land owned them
not the other way around
if i am walking around the woods
and i see a diamond on the ground
you are standing next to it
so i ask you
is this your diamond?
and you say no
because you dont believe you can own that diamond
is it stealing if i pocket it?
how can i steal from you
what you do not own?
i realize that many of these examples
do not hold true when applied to the
higher standard of the life of a
no subject
Date: 2002-04-10 05:21 pm (UTC)This seems a little incongruous to me.
no subject
Date: 2002-04-10 09:58 pm (UTC)as you may have noticed
that comment was cut short
a flaw i suppose
in the email response system
however i remind you
that my last statement was
that the examples which i gave
were not expandable to the scope
that we are talking about
i.e. i agreed with your point
and were not comparible to the situation as a whole
i was knowingly oversimplifying
and i stated that fact
i will attempt to reconstruct
the remainder of that comment
and it was a minor point and one
which was not being used to prove the overall point
but illuminate the greater question
which i was asking
no subject
Date: 2002-04-12 01:21 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2002-04-10 05:21 pm (UTC)Furthermore, my Native rights battle cry has less to do with land ownership than it does with their lamentable treatment and rights. All the land in the world is nothing if you don't have the same opportunities as your neighbor. Especially in this country, where indiviudal achievements and the employment market mean so much.
It wouldn't be okay if they had these rights and opportunities, because we brutalized them and that's a fact that will always remain. But it'd be more okay.
no subject
Date: 2002-04-12 01:28 am (UTC)but if he steals the diamond, and leaves it for his son in his will. his son has no idea how he got it, but has no reason to assume it was stolen, then it gets muddier. at that point, if the original owner demands it back from the son, it's a 'sins of the fathers' type situation, where he will lose his property because of his father's actions.
politics has gotten entirely too stodgy. they wouldnt have put up with this shit in midieval times. not that i advocate violence, but it's all been going on entirely too long and too much crap from both sides, and someone needs to smack them both upside the head and tell them to shut the hell up and settle it already
this is not a very well pondered comment, it being 4:30am and me being in a pissy mood. so ya know.