Intolerance
Mar. 2nd, 2004 03:01 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
pluralI am not really a tolerant person and I don't have a problem with it. I think there is a serious flaw with our current societies fixation with tolerance, actually it isn't tolerance that bothers me but how society tells us that we must approve, not just tolerate. Just because we should tolerate some things that do not directly affect us or cause us harm, does not mean that they are right, healthy, or good
That's what being in a free society means, that sometimes we have to let people be free to do things, we disagree with but which do not impugn our rights, or the rights of others. But that's doesn't mean we have to like it or approve of it.
For most things, my intolerance is divided into two categories:
Things which I personally believe to be wrong but have no problem with other people doing, these range from eating pork to homosexuality. Such things are in my opinion either sins between god and man (or woman) or simply distasteful, I do not want people judging me for my sins against god so I wont get involved in judging theirs. I have many homosexual friends and many friends who eat pork
I believe all of them deserve equal rights and treatment under the law but I cannot and will not compromise my beliefs by saying that I agree with their actions or that I believe it is ok. It is simply none of my business to interfere in whatever compromise [or lack thereof] they have worked out with their god in order to get on with their lives
I do not judge them because I cannot be in their shoes and for all my arrogance and pretensions I am not their god
Sometimes my homosexual friends [but rarely my pork eating friends] have a problem with this. They fail to see any difference between my judging an action as morally wrong, and my judging them as morally wrong. When the truth is unless someone is hurting someone else, I find myself without a leg to stand any such judgment upon. I have my sins, they have theirs, who I am to decide which is worse, or that one of us is therefore a better person
I accept them and their sins as they accept me and mine.
The other form of my intolerance, is with actions which negatively affect other people and there I am not so genial. From the heinous crimes such as rape or child abuse, to simple inconsideration. Such things I wont allow in my world, my actions of course are dependant on the scope. Obviously I would take stronger action and more prompt action, against a child rapist than an inconsiderate buffoon. But my principles, the very fabric of my reality depends entirely on my refutation of such behaviors.
In the words of Ellie Weisel
"There may be times when we are powerless to prevent injustice, but there must never be a time when we fail to protest."
In the Jewish belief system, the concept of charity is paramount, it is not simply a good thing to do, but an obligation. The Hebrew word "Tzedakah", which is most often translated as "Charity", also means "Justice". Because in recognizing our obligation to help those in need, we recognize that our world is imperfect,that injustices exist, and that we have a duty to help correct those injustices.
My own vision of my world, in many ways comes from these ideals, I rather envision my world as a bubble, and within that bubble I have complete control of the circumstances, when we interact with another person, our bubbles overlap, and we give consent for others to affect our world. Most of us fail to realize the extent of our control, and many of us are unwilling to accept responsibility for giving others consent to affect our lives. When someone brings a behaviour into my world, which I dislike, I make adjustments to remove that aspect or behaviour, either by speaking with the person, or removing them from my sphere of influence. When someone forces their way into my world, or uses violence in a way I find unacceptable within my bubble, I respond in kind. I have in the past, jumped in to defend a stranger being jumped by a number of guys, because it offends my sense of honor and how the world should work, and quite frankly, I would rather get my ass kicked than live with the thought that by omission, I consented to and accepted such behaviour as acceptable in my world.
Each of us, has a responsibility to ourselves and to our world to make every effort to prevent and heal injustices, or at a minimum to protest them. For me it is entirely a question of what kind of world I want to live in, and in all honesty, the world I see on the nightly news, is a world that I am not willing to inhabit. Perhaps I am a control freak, perhaps I am just too independent and stubborn to admit that there is anything in my world that I cannot affect.
I will be the first to admit that I have and will again in the future, fail to live up to my own ideals, my own aspirations, my honest goal is not perfection but merely to have more successes than failures in adhering to that which I believe, 51% is pretty damn good in my book. For me it is entirely about the quality of life I want to have, and the simple ability to look myself in the mirror at the end of any given day, and not be ashamed.
Just my nickel
That's what being in a free society means, that sometimes we have to let people be free to do things, we disagree with but which do not impugn our rights, or the rights of others. But that's doesn't mean we have to like it or approve of it.
For most things, my intolerance is divided into two categories:
Things which I personally believe to be wrong but have no problem with other people doing, these range from eating pork to homosexuality. Such things are in my opinion either sins between god and man (or woman) or simply distasteful, I do not want people judging me for my sins against god so I wont get involved in judging theirs. I have many homosexual friends and many friends who eat pork
I believe all of them deserve equal rights and treatment under the law but I cannot and will not compromise my beliefs by saying that I agree with their actions or that I believe it is ok. It is simply none of my business to interfere in whatever compromise [or lack thereof] they have worked out with their god in order to get on with their lives
I do not judge them because I cannot be in their shoes and for all my arrogance and pretensions I am not their god
Sometimes my homosexual friends [but rarely my pork eating friends] have a problem with this. They fail to see any difference between my judging an action as morally wrong, and my judging them as morally wrong. When the truth is unless someone is hurting someone else, I find myself without a leg to stand any such judgment upon. I have my sins, they have theirs, who I am to decide which is worse, or that one of us is therefore a better person
I accept them and their sins as they accept me and mine.
The other form of my intolerance, is with actions which negatively affect other people and there I am not so genial. From the heinous crimes such as rape or child abuse, to simple inconsideration. Such things I wont allow in my world, my actions of course are dependant on the scope. Obviously I would take stronger action and more prompt action, against a child rapist than an inconsiderate buffoon. But my principles, the very fabric of my reality depends entirely on my refutation of such behaviors.
In the words of Ellie Weisel
"There may be times when we are powerless to prevent injustice, but there must never be a time when we fail to protest."
In the Jewish belief system, the concept of charity is paramount, it is not simply a good thing to do, but an obligation. The Hebrew word "Tzedakah", which is most often translated as "Charity", also means "Justice". Because in recognizing our obligation to help those in need, we recognize that our world is imperfect,that injustices exist, and that we have a duty to help correct those injustices.
My own vision of my world, in many ways comes from these ideals, I rather envision my world as a bubble, and within that bubble I have complete control of the circumstances, when we interact with another person, our bubbles overlap, and we give consent for others to affect our world. Most of us fail to realize the extent of our control, and many of us are unwilling to accept responsibility for giving others consent to affect our lives. When someone brings a behaviour into my world, which I dislike, I make adjustments to remove that aspect or behaviour, either by speaking with the person, or removing them from my sphere of influence. When someone forces their way into my world, or uses violence in a way I find unacceptable within my bubble, I respond in kind. I have in the past, jumped in to defend a stranger being jumped by a number of guys, because it offends my sense of honor and how the world should work, and quite frankly, I would rather get my ass kicked than live with the thought that by omission, I consented to and accepted such behaviour as acceptable in my world.
Each of us, has a responsibility to ourselves and to our world to make every effort to prevent and heal injustices, or at a minimum to protest them. For me it is entirely a question of what kind of world I want to live in, and in all honesty, the world I see on the nightly news, is a world that I am not willing to inhabit. Perhaps I am a control freak, perhaps I am just too independent and stubborn to admit that there is anything in my world that I cannot affect.
I will be the first to admit that I have and will again in the future, fail to live up to my own ideals, my own aspirations, my honest goal is not perfection but merely to have more successes than failures in adhering to that which I believe, 51% is pretty damn good in my book. For me it is entirely about the quality of life I want to have, and the simple ability to look myself in the mirror at the end of any given day, and not be ashamed.
Just my nickel
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no subject
Date: 2004-03-02 11:56 am (UTC)how do you feel about marriage between homosexuals?
no subject
Date: 2004-03-02 12:41 pm (UTC)I think to put in the venarcular of you point, my issue with them would be for them to describe how, exactly to guys getting married in any imposes on them.
One argument I suppose is that individual examples aren't the problem, rather the impact of the culture that allows it is what bothers them... To that I would respond that there is an implied acceptence of societies touching you... and in this country, anyway, you are free to move to a locality more to your choosing if it truly bothers you.
Another argument could be that by allowing a state 'sponsor' of gay marriage, they are 'devaluing' their own contract with their spouse (not unlike one could say that letting black folks move in next door devalues one's house)... My response to that would be to suggest that the 'value' of marriage contract is in the strength of the bond. Since marriage predates nearly all modern religions (egyptians were getting married long before the Jews discovered God), it isn't unreasonble to think that the heirarchy of such a contract goes personal-religion-government. As the personal is the 'highest' level of the contract, any imposition of a governmentatl edict would have to pass through two levels, suggesting that if thier contract is affected by a govermental imposion they've got mariatal problems far greater than anything a couple of gay guys' marriage should be impacting them.
As usual you've managed to parse the complex down to a set of accurate and meaningful tools with which to parry ..
thanks, bubba.
no subject
Date: 2004-03-02 01:42 pm (UTC)I do not think the state should base any rights or privileges on sexual orientation.
What two or more consenting adults do amongst themselves sexually is entirely between them, and their god. I am in no place to judge, and I think our society is fooling itself if it thinks it is.
no subject
Date: 2004-03-02 04:14 pm (UTC)the funny thing is
that this really wasnt a post
about gay marriage
I had a feeling it would
get side tracked as such
but I felt it was the strongest example
so I used it anyway
but really my overall point was about self determination
ah well
as with all things
people may take from my ramblings what they will
no subject
Date: 2004-03-03 12:03 am (UTC)In school growing up we were taught a lot about how we should be tolerant, usually alongside topics like slavery and the Holocaust. Despite being taught tolerance in the simplest form, the quest for tolerance still turns into a quest for acceptance and agreement. I think this indicates that there's something about humans that wants agreement. Most people have a harder time than you separating people with people's behaviors... I mean... people's behaviors are a huge part of who people are. Right?
Regarind homosexuality in particular, though (and this does carry into other things), if a gay man feels that his sexual preference is a huge part of his identity, you considering it morally wrong is practically the same as you rejecting him seeing as how you're not approving of a huge part of his identity. It may also have a lot to do with how you view homosexuality (not that I could presume to know, but). If this gay man really feels that he was born gay, born to love other men, you
no subject
Date: 2004-03-03 12:15 am (UTC)If this gay man really feels that he was born gay, born to love other men, you viewing it as morally wrong is like you considering a left handed person's left handedness morally wrong.
In general people like to be surrounded by what is familiar to them, what is comfortable to them. I guess this is what their bubbles are. And if I understand correctly, you feel that people do not realize the control they have over their own bubbles?
I think there's also a difference in how you categorize unallowables and how other people categorize them... In a sense, you are working towards a better community, within your own bubble. People who actively protest homosexuality view homosexuality as a threat to their bubble just as you do not want inconsideration in your world... symantics. A lot of symantics.
I realize now, too, that I gave poor examples of being taught tolerance, or at least didn't fully explain. In saying that we were taught tolerance alongside slavery and the Holocaust, I mean that they were basically trying to tell us not to engage in hate crime.
no subject
Date: 2004-03-03 12:21 am (UTC)To further clarify what I mean about categorization of unallowables...
People who are essentially intollerant to the point of protesting do so as an effort to extract gayness from their bubbles because they feel that it is a real threat to them, or to their comfort. Just as a man being jumped by several is distasteful to you.
I hope I've made sense. And that I am not being completely inane. Tired.
no subject
Date: 2004-03-03 10:42 am (UTC)A person may be genetically or environmentally predisposed to any number of behaviours but that does not excuse them from responsibility for their actions. Any guy can most accurately claim that biology has designed him to be unfaithful, but that wouldnt excuse his behaviour.
Lastly, the difference between a person being threatened by homosexuality, and my refuting inconsideration, is simple. Inconsideration is an act in which, however minorly, one person is harming another, where as a person who is offended by homosexuality is not impacted in anyway. Next you have questions of injustice, when I see three guys beating up on one guy, it offends my sense of justice, precisely because they are causing harm, so I am driven to act, and while a person could find two men kissing to be offensive, it would be quite a stretch to label it an injustice requiring correction.
What it comes down to is however distasteful you may find something, you have no right to prevent someone from doing it, until it becomes harmful to another.
The old adage, "you right to swing your fist, ends where my nose begins" seems fitting here
no subject
Date: 2004-03-03 01:16 pm (UTC)What I was saying about a gay man being upset that you reject their homosexuality is just that if they feel it's a huge part of their identity, you not approving of it means you don't approve of them. It's not really a matter of separating your opinion of their actions and them as people. If they see their actions defining them as people, rejection of one is rejection of the other.
Even if a man never has any sexual contact with another man but he wants it, if he know that you disapprove of such behavior, just because he doesn't do it doesn't mean he is removed from it...
That comment was really only in response to:
Sometimes my homosexual friends [but rarely my pork eating friends] have a problem with this. They fail to see any difference between my judging an action as morally wrong, and my judging them as morally wrong.
I was trying to consider reasons why people would have a problem with your system of intolerance.
But I think I better understand what you meant... . Now that I'm awake again I realize I didn't fully read the last two paragraphs last night. Sorry.
But a thought about people who feel the need to be verbal or whatever about homosexuality... I think within their realities they do feel that it is an injustice in many ways... If they're conservative Christian. Many feel that it is their right and duty to see that others abide by the rules (as they preach them). Evangelism, I guess. Jesus won't come back unless everyone believes... Of course, not everyone is evangelical christian. Maybe a lot of people are scared gayness will rub off on them and then they'll be gay too, and their children too.
no subject
Date: 2004-03-03 01:31 pm (UTC)Personally I think this is a remnant of the prejudice against gays, where before if someone was gay that was all anyone saw.
I would think that a gay person would want to be definined by who they are as a human being more so than by who they fuck or how.
Conservative christians are a whole nother box of worms, I have little sympathy for their moralistic claims against homosexuality when the basis of those claims is an injustice in itself, that being that everyone should be forced to believe and act how we do.
And lastly, the idea that gayness will rub off is absurd, and an patently baseless fear, any time we seek to abridge the rights of others, we must hold to an excrutiatingly high standard of logic and proof to justify it.
In the case of you punching me in the nose, society depriving you of the right to swing your fist is significantly less damaging to you, than you depriving me of the right to live peacably without fear of violence. It is a question of scale of rights.
A persons has no right not to be offended by anothers behaviour, especially when that behaviour is not directed at them.
no subject
Date: 2004-03-03 03:50 pm (UTC)indeed.
As my point had more to do with your ability to create a framework in which to encase any argument (I happened to use gay marriage as an example) that had intolerance as its lynchpin, I can completely sympathize.